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1. Pyxl10+(OP)[view] [source] 2018-02-15 13:44:48
Thank you for clarifying. Let’s not characterize programming as masculine or feminine (since that would begging the question and stereotyping). Let’s characterize it in terms of properties that have been scientifically studied.

I would characterize programming as very far on the “Things” side of the axis that is “People vs Things”.

See: Men and Things, Women and People: A Meta-Analysis of Sex Differences in Interests

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47af/4a7e87267aba681fb69715...

The fundamental task of programming – sitting in front of a computer, reasoning about the machine and the system, and writing code and debugging systems for hours on end — is about as “thing”-oriented as I can conceive of. One needs to do a great deal of this to get a CS degree.

Another dimension to consider is Systematizing versus Empathizing (citations omitted). Programming seems to be far on the systematizing side.

As a thought experiment, what jobs might be further on the side of “things“ and “systematizing” than programming?

(I don’t know of any studies that characterize the programming in these dimensions. I’m providing my intuition.)

I’m not super familiar with the practice of law, but I would guess that it’s actually fairly close to the middle of both of those spectrums. The law itself is systematic but practicing it involves working with people at every level (client, counterparty, judge, regulator). It’s possible to write and deliver code, or root-cause and fix a bug report, without interacting with another soul.

replies(2): >>megama+i8 >>rayine+v8
2. megama+i8[view] [source] 2018-02-15 14:51:15
>>Pyxl10+(OP)
From your reply:

> The fundamental task of programming – sitting in front of a computer, reasoning about the machine and the system, and writing code and debugging systems for hours on end — is about as “thing”-oriented as I can conceive of. One needs to do a great deal of this to get a CS degree.

From the GP:

>You could easily say that programming is feminine. It’s not at all physical, all about cooperating and communicating with other people, it’s about managing expectations, etc.

Here's the real disconnect, and it's all about the environment that is cultivated wherever you happen to be. These are really two wildly different professions that happen to be lumped under one title. On the one hand you have the concrete, generative work where you are creating a thing out of the void. And on the other, you have the political infighting and jockeying to be allowed to do that generative work, and all of the overhead involved in such operations. These are wildly disconnected activities, and it should be no surprise that people gravitate towards one extreme or the other, with very few rare unicorns that can do both at a high level.

3. rayine+v8[view] [source] 2018-02-15 14:53:06
>>Pyxl10+(OP)
I would characterize law school as even more “thing” oriented than a STEM program (having done both). Law school is just pattern matching. You read cases to derive a set of abstract rules. Then on the test, you pattern match facts in a long hypothetical against the rules and write out how each element of each rule applies to the facts in the hypothetical. Whoever analyzes the most issues in 3 hours wins. Unlike STEM, there is no group work, there is no creativity, and although the fact patterns involve people, they are abstractions in the same way a person is just a database row. You’re actively penalized for thinking of people in terms of people, because professors set up hypotheticals to lead to results you might not want.

The practice of law at a business firm (where 50% of associates are women) occasionally involves people, but for the most part is thing oriented. I do less coordinating with team members and the client than when I was an engineer, because everything is on the record. You don’t have long meetings with the client to get their use cases, etc. When you do interact with people it’s systematized and highly artificial. Youre not trying to connect with the judge as a person. You’re breaking down an often highly abstract issue into constituent parts to help the judge understand it. And the things you’re dealing with are typically more abstract. The subject matter isn’t a website with pictures or human users. The subject matter is a lien, or a credit default swap, or a regulation embodying an economic theory. You talk about these abstractions as if they were things.

replies(1): >>cpach+Vz1
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4. cpach+Vz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-02-16 04:53:13
>>rayine+v8
Interesting! Regarding the second paragraph, is this true also for criminal law?
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