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1. huevin+(OP)[view] [source] 2018-01-19 08:13:27
>anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room

As someone who has spent a lot of time in academic security conferences, I have to wonder what you are comparing them to. The only field with a worse female participation rate in my experience is networking (e.g. SIGCOMM). Check out this picture from EuroCrypt in 97 and count the ratio of women to men. It looks like under 1 in 10 which is worse than general CS enrollment numbers: http://www.crypto-uni.lu/jscoron/misc/euro_97.jpg

Anyway, back to the main point.

>CS is almost uniquely imbalanced.

I agree. However, a 1/4 female/male ratio coming out of CS programs is going to be reflected in the industry and attempting to bring the balance on the industry side to 50/50 is folly while the enrollment balance stays the same.

Clearly something is discouraging women from enrolling at the college level, but I can't fathom how 50/50 quotas are supposed to help solve that problem. Implementing things like Google's "extra interview retries" for minorities just seems to cause division and make it worse for minorities because some people assume they are there for the wrong reason.

Are you aware of programs focusing on getting more women enrolled at the high-school and college level? It seems like it would be significantly more productive as a community to put a significant focus there in terms of resources (money, advocacy, etc).

I know almost nobody that has a problem with improving enrollment numbers of women in CS (equality of opportunity). However, there is a significant chunk of people that have problems with the "white males are over-represented and we need to give everyone else an advantage" approach (equality of outcomes).

What am I missing here? Why are so many resources being poured into something as fundamentally flawed as trying to get equal representation with a supply that doesn't have equal representation?

replies(3): >>archag+z5 >>tptace+go >>cbm-vi+uH
2. archag+z5[view] [source] 2018-01-19 09:56:44
>>huevin+(OP)
It could be argued that the “pull” from top companies will entice members of underrepresented groups to get into tech on the college level.

It is also not necessarily the case that picking 50:50 out of a 75:25 distribution will lead to a competence imbalance. Even if the skill distribution is the same for both populations, maybe only certain baselines matter for doing good work, and maybe any skill gaps could be corrected via on-the-job training. Maybe having that kind of diversity is worth the extra effort for the company.

3. tptace+go[view] [source] 2018-01-19 14:17:08
>>huevin+(OP)
I don't have much to say about most of this (in either direction) but I will point out that academic cryptography is not the same as academic (Usenix-style) security; cryptography is a junction between mathematics (as in, "the math department") and CS, where security is entirely a subtopic of CS.

I don't know what was going on at EuroCrypt in 1997, but I've been to workshops within the last 5 years, and the number of women involved was startling. Which, of course, squares with the statistics for gender parity in CS (bad) vs. mathematics (better).

replies(1): >>huevin+rT1
4. cbm-vi+uH[view] [source] 2018-01-19 16:34:47
>>huevin+(OP)
> Clearly something is discouraging women from enrolling at the college level,

Have you ever been in a 100-level CS course? Granted, it's been a while for me, but they're generally full of 18-year-olds who lack a certain amount of social grace. IME, most people are pretty okay, but there was a notable minority of people you just don't want to spend time with: annoying, obnoxious kids who feel the constant need to correct everyone around them (including the instructors) to demonstrate how frickin' smart they are, and who don't realize they're also surrounded by other smart people who aren't as annoying and obnoxious. And, IME, many of these people actively make young women uncomfortable with their advances and behavior.

There are still lots of liberal arts schools that are very much gender-segregated (Wellesley, Smith); I can't think of any "women's" tech schools. I wonder what the CS classes and enrollment is like at places that are more-or-less women-only.

replies(1): >>crunch+GP1
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5. crunch+GP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-20 03:13:34
>>cbm-vi+uH
If that's a cause of the disparity, would it show as large numbers dropping their first course after meeting their classmates, or not enrolling in the course in the first place?

Of course it also starts before college enrollment. AP computer science courses in high school have about the same gender ratio (19%). [0] Those would probably contain the same minority you mentioned, a few years younger.

[0] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/08/technology/computer-coding...

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6. huevin+rT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-20 04:40:02
>>tptace+go
I'm not sure where you got the impression that this is like USENIX. Eurocrypt is theory and application of cryptography. A significant chunk of publications have nothing to do with application and discuss interesting theoretical math. Eurocrypt is one of the best academic cryptography destinations for theoretical crypto research. See an example of the proceedings: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-319-56620-7
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