zlacker

[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. mpweih+(OP)[view] [source] 2018-01-18 23:27:17
As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women.

Hmmm...

replies(7): >>whatsh+B >>geofft+z1 >>smsm42+f2 >>pmarre+9b >>rconti+Dc >>bjourn+qe >>comman+ah1
2. whatsh+B[view] [source] 2018-01-18 23:33:36
>>mpweih+(OP)
The willingness to slog though abusive working conditions is one of the most highly-selected-for trait in tech. Mature people are, on average, are less willing to do this than young people of the customarily military age range.
replies(2): >>gervas+I3 >>dang+t5
3. geofft+z1[view] [source] 2018-01-18 23:42:17
>>mpweih+(OP)
I'm not totally sure "significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do" is the right summary - I agree that the report says that, of men who left, significantly more reported unfairness as a cause, but I don't think that that translates to more men leaving, or men being more likely to leave because of unfairness, or more unfairness towards men (i.e., "women being treated more fairly"). And even if more men, numerically, left, if there were more men to start with, it doesn't mean men are leaving at higher rates.

(Anyway, personally, I think that toxic tech culture selects against "people who don't fit the stereotype," which includes lots of men, and lots more women, and I don't think framing this as either "it's terrible for women and not for men" or "actually men have it worse" is particularly productive.)

EDIT: I see that the article links the Kapor report with the sentence "Staying silent about the unfairness that causes 37% of underrepresented people of color to leave tech helps no one," which I think is the same misreading of the Kapor report. 37% of underrepresented people of color who have left tech have left because of unfairness - it is not that 37% of underrepresented people of color in tech have left because of unfairness. The previous sentence from the author, about the 50% retention rate, looks like it better supports the narrative point being made (although the source is about STEM as a whole and not just tech).

replies(1): >>mpweih+i2
4. smsm42+f2[view] [source] 2018-01-18 23:47:21
>>mpweih+(OP)
An important point here - every time I read "X% of class A had this happening to them" I automatically ask "what's the baseline rate? If you weren't in class A, would it happen to you more often or less often?" If I don't find this comparison - and usually I don't - then the number of X% is useless for the purpose of deciding whether class A is an outlier or not. Unfortunately, as I said, very small number of people quoting the statistics do this basic due diligence.

In this particular case, it is natural that people that believe they are treated unfairly leave, and conversely, if somebody left, one of the probably reasons is because they were unhappy, and one of common reasons of unhappiness is that they don't believe they were treated fairly. The question pertinent to the purpose of the article is do e.g. women have it worse? For that, one needs more than one number, so any claim that includes only one number is automatically disqualified from providing proper information - it provides no more than half of it.

replies(1): >>mpweih+x4
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5. mpweih+i2[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-18 23:48:48
>>geofft+z1
Sorry, all the statements in the study would need to be qualified like that (and most of them much more), and virtually none of them are.

I am assuming the study has taken some care to be representative. Otherwise, there's no need to talk about the findings at all.

replies(2): >>marcos+X9 >>geofft+Za
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6. gervas+I3[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 00:02:28
>>whatsh+B
I think this point (the military age thing) is often overlooked in discussions about [age|race|gender|socioeconomic] diversity in tech. Rather than a single problem, I think it's actually two separate, intersecting problems.

The first is a recruitment/sourcing problem. There are many demonstrable factors, such as educational availability or social norms/pressure, that serve primarily to influence entrance rates into tech among different groups.

The second problem is a retention problem. Other social and cultural traits, like the aforementioned willingness to "sacrifice for the cause", place work above family, and so on, are also not evenly distributed among different [age|race|gender|socioeconomic] demographics; I think these traits (or lack thereof) are more strongly correlated with leaving (or being forced out) of tech. To some extent, these might also serve as cooling effects for entrance as well, but I'd hesitate to make any claims about the strength of that effect.

Perhaps by explicitly addressing these two issues independently, rather than by evaluating a "where are we at this current moment statistically" snapshot, this issue can be tackled more effectively?

I think many current approaches fall into the trap of evaluating the snapshot, effectively saying "How has it come to this?!", and then trying to treat the symptom, rather than the cause.

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7. mpweih+x4[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 00:10:52
>>smsm42+f2
Yes. And the fact that they leave out the baselines pretty much everywhere is highly suspicious.

The rest of the study provides even less information, just tendentious excerpts. What does "30% of underrepresented women of color were passed over for promotion" even mean??

The ACM did a study a while back that contradicted virtually all of the stereotypes[1].

"Men and women in our survey both generally reported a similar level of experience with role models. Women, even in a predominately male work environment did not report a significant difference from men in the influence role models had on their careers in IT. This surprising finding does not support previous assumptions that the lack of females in IT means a lack of role models for women, which was assumed to be a disadvantage for women"

"Similarly, men and women in the survey reported comparable levels of learning and comfort around the social aspects of the profession despite stereotypes that suggest women are drawn more to social interaction [7]. However, our surveyed male IT professionals also reported stronger socialization with regard to the technical aspects of the profession, including familiarity with its language and confidence concerning their own skills "

"Our findings uncovered only one significant gender difference across a variety of work-related experiences. Female and male IT professionals alike reported similar levels of experience regarding the work-family conflict, feelings of burnout, perceptions of work load, perceptions of fair treatment in job scheduling, assignment of job responsibilities, pay and other rewards, and perceptions of supervisor support related to family issues. They differed in regard to their perceptions of supervisor support related to their careers. This finding indicates that women perceive greater support in meeting career goals, recognizing opportunities, and improving their job performance."

Yes, women reported greater support in this ACM survey.

"We found no significant gender differences for these measures of attitude. Male and female IT professionals in the study reported similar levels of satisfaction with their IT careers. They also reported similar (strong) levels of professional identification with the profession. Finally, and perhaps most important to the question at hand, we found no significant gender differences in intention to leave the profession"

Etc.

There was also a huge study done on why women leave engineering[2].

Top reasons (in order):

1. Wanted more time with family

2. Lost interest

3. No advancement

4. Didn't like daily tasks

5. Didn't like culture

6. Didn't like boss

7. Poor working conditions

8. Conflict with family

9. Too many hours

10. Low salary

11. Too much travel

12. Didn't like co-workers

13. Started own business

14. Couldn't find position

15. Too difficult

Oh...and "almost half the women who left the engineering field over five years ago reported working at least 40 hours per week in a current non-engineering position [..] More than half the women in this group reported being in an executive management position, 15% were in a managerial position and 30% reported being individual contributors". So they left "engineering" for "management". The humanity!

And of course when this study was reported, it was "It's the [sexist] culture!!". Sigh. Culture comes in at number 5 and is culture in general.

[1] https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-...

[2] https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/NSF_Stemming%20the%20Tid...

replies(2): >>pmarre+hb >>Double+UL
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8. dang+t5[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 00:19:54
>>whatsh+B
Please don't post unsubstantive comments or flamebait here. What you say isn't remotely plausible, since if it were true, software companies would be filled with non-programmers. Edit: I mean instead of programmers.
replies(2): >>MollyR+k7 >>Sacho+FF
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9. MollyR+k7[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 00:37:04
>>dang+t5
During the first dot com bubble, software companies were sort of filled with non-programmers.

Source: I lived through it and started with almost no experience and was hired and trained on the job. They hired a ton of people to be trained, and many didn't succeed and were transferred to non dev jobs.

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10. marcos+X9[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 01:09:02
>>mpweih+i2
It's not a matter of representativity. It's a matter of measuring a different thing.

The article measures shares of reasons between the people that left, but those are not correct by the share of people that left on each subgroup.

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11. geofft+Za[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 01:21:48
>>mpweih+i2
(See my edit if you haven't - I agree that the blog post is trying to claim something that the Kapor study is not saying, or at least is phrased poorly.)
replies(1): >>mpweih+9v
12. pmarre+9b[view] [source] 2018-01-19 01:22:57
>>mpweih+(OP)
Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to this data?
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13. pmarre+hb[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 01:23:35
>>mpweih+x4
Does #1 basically boil down to, "she had kids"?
14. rconti+Dc[view] [source] 2018-01-19 01:37:53
>>mpweih+(OP)
I noticed that, too. I don't have time to read the entire article, but the numbers on the "Tech Leavers" link didn't fit the story. In fact, the numbers across genders were fairly equal. The "Women and STEM Occupations" link fit the story quite a bit better.
15. bjourn+qe[view] [source] 2018-01-19 01:57:57
>>mpweih+(OP)
Did you really read the article? It spoke to everyone who felt that they didn't fit into the tech industry's toxic mild. Nowhere did they make it out to be a question about women.
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16. mpweih+9v[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 06:35:39
>>geofft+Za
I see the same sort of thing in the "study", all over the place.
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17. Sacho+FF[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 10:06:19
>>dang+t5
I think you read his comment in bad faith and ascribed "flamebait" and unsubstantiveness to it. Specifically, the comment states:

> The willingness to slog though abusive working conditions is one of the most highly-selected-for trait in tech.

The comment claims that "abuse tolerance" is one of the most highly-selected-for traits, not the only thing you need to become a programmer. Further, programming skill isn't even necessarily a "trait" - the colloquial meaning of "trait" is often a personality trait, not any possible characteristic of a person.

I don't see how the comment is substantively different from the many others on this topic.

replies(1): >>dang+iH
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18. dang+iH[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 10:34:54
>>Sacho+FF
The comment was edited after I posted that. Originally it said, "is the most highly-selected-for trait in tech".

It always shocks me when people silently do that to undermine someone's reply; it seems so blatantly dishonest. Do we need to make comments non-editable once they have replies?

replies(2): >>Sacho+OK >>whatsh+Fi1
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19. Sacho+OK[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 11:44:14
>>dang+iH
Hmm, I see, and I agree that it is very subversive to edit your comment without a mention. I think even just a single "edited" marker would be enough to cast doubt on the mismatch between comment and reply. It's also not a big deal to make comments uneditable after a reply, because the edit period is fairly small, and I don't think people actually use HN for "real-time discussion". Maybe it's interesting to see the rate of replies within the editable period of a comment?

Even then, I don't think your reply is correct in dismissing the claim. A charitable interpretation would be that the poster meant personality trait, not including programming skill. Even a very strict interpretation still leaves room for the poster's assertion, via this hypothetical:

- totality of traits used when determining programmer quality is 100%

- abuse tolerance is the most highly selected, at 10%

- programming skill is quantified by 90 different traits at 1% each

This would mean that people without programming skill would not become programmers, but the top trait would still be abuse tolerance.

Anyway, I feel this is getting highly nitpicky at this point, I don't feel the poster was trying to make a statistical claim, but rather just emphasize that they believe "abuse tolerance" is very important for programmers, which I don't find to be facially unsubstantive or "flamebait".

(disclaimer: I made several edits to this post as I was writing it out)

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20. Double+UL[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 12:04:29
>>mpweih+x4
I wonder how such a list would look like for other jobs. I guess pretty similar?
21. comman+ah1[view] [source] 2018-01-19 16:35:51
>>mpweih+(OP)
I can't help but think that a lot of people say "tech culture" when they mean "San Fransisco/Silicon Valley tech companies", because these observations are a different world than the one I live in. I didn't graduate from MIT or Standford, so I wasn't recruited to go work on space shuttles after I graduated, I was stuck doing the "enterprise CRUD" type jobs that I didn't even realize I was supposed to hate (I was grateful to have the sort of job that let me sit in an air conditioned office and drink coffee all day). I spent four years in central Illinois in the mid 90's and, although it's true that the places I worked were predominantly white, they were also completely gender-balanced - I didn't do a headcount, but it sure looked like there were as many women there, doing technical-type jobs, as there were men. In the late 90's I moved down to north Texas and there was a shocking demographic shift in the sorts of tech companies I worked at. I've been here now for 20 years across five different employers and without exception they've all been pretty much gender balanced, but _dominated_ by Indians. So maybe 60/40 men vs. women but 95/5 Indians vs. anybody else. So it seems a little strange for me to hear somebody say that women are, say, 10% less represented in the "tech industry" than they ought to be and say that this is evidence of a vast conspiracy while ignoring what seems to me to be the elephant in the room.
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22. whatsh+Fi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 16:47:19
>>dang+iH
I was actually just trying to file off the flamebait without changing the meaning - since "the most" was meant as a figure of speech in the first place I missed that someone could have seen it as a key point.

The sibling essentially sees what was going on here, I was thinking of a closely-weighted linear classfier where a small change to the weights could alter their ordering but do little to change the results.

Although it's definitely my responsibility to write clearly, in the future I'll think more carefully about what my replies are actually disagreeing with before I make edits that I think are just phrasing!

(And yes, I also had a few edits here before I found a way to write it clearly.)

replies(1): >>dang+YH1
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23. dang+YH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2018-01-19 19:51:42
>>whatsh+Fi1
Thanks for explaining. It often happens that I assume bad faith in someone on HN and then was completely wrong. Sorry about that! I have to work to follow the site guidelines (which say "assume good faith") as much as anyone.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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