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1. xnull2+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-30 18:07:39
Doesn't "there is no chutzpah defense" imply that he is guilty of a range of other things - then not yet determined in court?

And does it really work that way? You can be entrapped so long as your defense has no chutzpah?

Isn't it the case that law enforcement can be guilty of entrapment AND the defendant guilty of a crime? Hasn't this been established many times before? Wouldn't this exclude 'chutzpah' arguments?

I'm not sure that this really replies charitably to the premise of the discussion - i.e. that there was coercion. According to your argument nothing short of law enforcement physically forcing someone to take an action would be entrapment; so long as there are choices - even bad ones. Nor was there a reply to the fact that the hitman wasn't his idea.

It seems to me that those wishing the justice system overlook these issues already had decided on DRPs guilt and were convinced to get it at, even if that meant sacrificing due process and papering over it.

DPR can be behind bars - I don't care. But due process is something that even those wishing it were ignored for this conviction rely on and need, even if they don't think so.

replies(1): >>Natsu+ef
2. Natsu+ef[view] [source] 2015-05-30 22:34:41
>>xnull2+(OP)
He was found guilty of a wide-ranging criminal enterprise. I've already quoted the judge's own words regarding what DPR was charged (and later convicted) of, but HN seems to think it's a lot different than what the court documents reflect.

Further, offering you hitman services is NOT entrapment. This would never ensnare an innocent person: they'd say no!

To the best of my knowledge, DPR's lawyers have not even alleged that the police committed any crimes. That would have allowed them to suppress the evidence and, as learned in the link I posted earlier, the evidence that he hired a hitman WAS allowed in court because it was part of the crimes he was charged with.

I did reply to your other post about it 'not being his idea'. That EXACT argument is explained in the law guide, right here: http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=646

The short answer is that, even if they offer you a hitman, all you ever had to do was say no. Giving you an opportunity is not entrapment. It just shows that if it hadn't been for the police, you would have committed a crime (solicitation for murder, here).

Finally, 'due process' means that he had his day in court. He got that and was sentenced by a jury of his peers. You can disagree with the reasons behind it, but there are good reasons for these rules which are clearly explained in the guide.

The fact that he was willing to deal with hitmen is the problem here. It's not self-defense, nor can it be. It's not a solution a non-criminal would ever accept. The fact that he had only bad solutions was due to his own guilt--there would be no illegal activities for the blackmailer to expose if he had not engaged in any. And if the blackmail was false, he'd have every reason to want to cooperate with the police and prove his innocence by working with them to catch the blackmailer.

replies(1): >>xnull2+5l
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3. xnull2+5l[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-31 00:06:02
>>Natsu+ef
> Further, offering you hitman services is NOT entrapment.

Nope, but creating a false circumstance of blackmail is. That's what we're talking about.

But we've gone in circles. I think we both need to talk to other (knowledgeable) people. Thanks for the chat.

replies(1): >>Natsu+8t
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4. Natsu+8t[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-31 03:16:25
>>xnull2+5l
Well, I gave links to a lawyer's explanation. I everything you're saying is entrapment is listed under the 'entrapment myths' so I don't know what to say here.
replies(1): >>xnull2+gA
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5. xnull2+gA[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-31 07:10:42
>>Natsu+8t
Right, it was just an explanation on an issue that wasn't a charitable representation of the DPR case. Which is what we were trying to resolve. Thus both our frustrations. It's cool, man. Let's both give up. :)
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