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[parent] [thread] 14 comments
1. gr8b8m+(OP)[view] [source] 2015-05-29 20:46:11
So let's get this straight for the justice system:

1. misleading the American public into going to a series of costly wars through lies about WMDs -> not punishable

2. Weakening Glass-Stegal and encouraging questionable and irresponsible risk-taking at major banking institutions -> not punishable

3. Fraudulent evaluation of risk-ratings by trusted agencies for the sake of profit leading to worst financial disaster since great depression -> not punishable, actually, rewarded with billions in bail-out by tax payers

4. setting up and running a website to host underground drug trade with bitcoins -> punishable by life-sentence

Not that what Ulbricht did was right or that he shouldn't be punished... but his biggest problem was that his business didn't generate enough profit at the expense of the public. Justice might be blind, but even she can still smell money.

replies(5): >>tizzdo+52 >>rhino3+93 >>dragon+b3 >>beniha+g6 >>pdkl95+c8
2. tizzdo+52[view] [source] 2015-05-29 21:00:57
>>gr8b8m+(OP)
I would change "not punishable" to "not punished". Sure you could be punished for all those things, but there just isnt enough political will to do so. Ulbricht's error was being a criminal whose punishment affects nobody in power.
replies(1): >>pvalde+9e1
3. rhino3+93[view] [source] 2015-05-29 21:10:01
>>gr8b8m+(OP)
1. There is no evidence to support purposeful lying about WMDs. Bush admin rushed the intelligence agency and relied on Yes Men to build their story. I'm sure there was some law breaking going on but good luck identifying who what and when.

2. Glass Stegal wouldn't have prevented shit. In fact the combination banks Glass Stegal would have prevented--BoA and Chase--were the banks who were strong enough to absorb the shitty failed banks--merill and lehman--that were often just investment banks.

Taking irresponsible risks isn't a crime either.

3) No evidence of fraud. These agencies trusted the financial models and those models didn't work.

Fuckups aren't punished in our society the way intentional law breaking is.

Should be guillotine every founder whose company fails?

replies(3): >>baddox+K4 >>defen+v6 >>asveik+r8
4. dragon+b3[view] [source] 2015-05-29 21:10:33
>>gr8b8m+(OP)
> 1. misleading the American public into going to a series of costly wars through lies about WMDs -> not punishable

Debatable. The justice system hasn't found that, no charges have been filed within the justice system over them.

> Weakening Glass-Stegal and encouraging questionable and irresponsible risk-taking at major banking institutions -> not punishable

While again this is untested directly, the legislative privilege in the Constitution makes this pretty clearly not punishable through the justice system. The punishment that can be dealt out for this is at the ballot box, not through the justice system.

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5. baddox+K4[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:26:22
>>rhino3+93
> Should be guillotine every founder whose company fails?

Guillotine, probably not, but I'm okay with punishing every "founder" of a "company" that errantly spends billions of tax dollars on weaponry and uses it to kill tens of thousands of innocent people.

6. beniha+g6[view] [source] 2015-05-29 21:42:06
>>gr8b8m+(OP)
Also let's not forget:

5. Apples are red

6. Oranges are orange

You're comparing facts: "Ulbricht ran The Silk Road," with your own conjecture: "Banks encouraged 'questionable' risk taking." You're making a lot of extraordinary claims that are very very difficult to prove with no evidence to back them up.

And you're using this conjecture as evidence of... something? You don't really make a point. You just repeat popular internet tropes.

replies(2): >>tomeld+U9 >>brando+Pb
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7. defen+v6[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 21:44:46
>>rhino3+93
Maybe a better example is the tobacco companies. They were convicted of a 50 year conspiracy to mislead the public about the health dangers of smoking, an activity that has led to trillions of dollars in health care costs and the deaths of literally millions of people in that span (in the US alone). No one went to jail for this...the companies "just" had to pay a $200 billion dollar fine (global annual tobacco sales revenue is estimated at $500 billion).
replies(2): >>teduna+Y7 >>rayine+h8
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8. teduna+Y7[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:02:19
>>defen+v6
Lesson to be learned: ulbricht should have incorporated the Silk Road.
9. pdkl95+c8[view] [source] 2015-05-29 22:04:38
>>gr8b8m+(OP)
0. Torturing civilians - including torturing some to DEATH, aka murder - in a futile attempt to emotionally lash out at people who may have been involved in 9/11

... even though it was well know torture does not produce useful intelligence

... and having ratified (in 1994) the Convention Against torture which includes a duty to prosecute or extradite

... and 18 U.S. Code § 2340A being amended by the "PATRIOT Act" - before the torture occured - to include clause (c) which allows charges and all punishments (except death) to include anyone who conspires to comit torture

-> not even an attempt to prosecute

/* is there a clearer, more obvious way to demonstrate how the US no longer cares about the "rule of law"? perhaps, but I can't think of anything that would top what the CIA has already done /

/* before anybody replies with idiotic claims that somehow it is ok to torture foreigners with claims relating to jurisdictional boundaries, I suggest actually read 18 U.S. Code § 2340A (b) */

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10. rayine+h8[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:05:22
>>defen+v6
The difference is, of course, that tobacco isn't illegal.
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11. asveik+r8[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:09:16
>>rhino3+93
> I'm sure there was some law breaking going on but good luck identifying who what and when.

Not meaning to go off on a political tangent, but it seems to me like there was a conscious effort not to ask such questions in an official capacity.

Imagine an alternate universe where we had Watergate-style hearings when Pelosi/Reid took over in 2007, or when the Obama administration started in 2009. In some circles, some people wanted that, and I think rightly or wrongly politicians decided it was not worth it. Easy to forget now, but it was certainly in political discourse 6 to 9 years ago.

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12. tomeld+U9[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:28:58
>>beniha+g6
I think the deeper point is that people feel there's a disconnect from the perceived damage an action incurs and the punishment assigned to it. Rightly or wrongly that's how people feel, and what is the law for in the end?
replies(1): >>pdkl95+Ta
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13. pdkl95+Ta[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:40:41
>>tomeld+U9
It's called "Rule Of Law". Why the hell should anybody else bother respecting the law, when it is patently clear that the law as written is not actually what the "law" that is used.

When people that have clearly violated the law - like certain people in the CIA, for example - are not even prosecuted, it is hard agree with people that think it is "just" to give someone life in prison for allegedly committing as far lesser crime.

At worst, Ross Ulbricht is accused of an attempted conspiracy of murder. People in the CIA actually killed people, in ways that are always illegal.

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14. brando+Pb[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-29 22:51:20
>>beniha+g6
There's plenty of evidence that banks intentionally mislead consumers through predatory lending schemes, signing them for (and misrepresenting the terms of) loans that they knew that the borrower would not be able to pay back. They did so under the explicit premise that the bad mortgages would be lumped in with other investment products and then sold off.

A lot of people were defrauded. The economy is still trying to recover. I don't think people who lost homes or are struggling to find work and make ends meet would consider any of this to be an internet trope.

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15. pvalde+9e1[view] [source] [discussion] 2015-05-30 22:23:00
>>tizzdo+52
I can't upvote this enough times... Yup, you really nailed it.
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