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1. rayine+(OP)[view] [source] 2014-06-12 18:10:50
I love Elon Musk, and kudos to them for doing this, but it's useful to read between the lines:

> Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters.

This is consistent with my view of how engineers in the traditional disciplines view patents.

> At Tesla, however, we felt compelled to create patents out of concern that the big car companies would copy our technology and then use their massive manufacturing, sales and marketing power to overwhelm Tesla

This is the precise thing that patents are designed to prevent: to keep the market from turning into a race to see who can outsource most efficiently to China and inundate the public most completely with advertising.

> The unfortunate reality is the opposite: electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent, constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales.

So the other manufacturers didn't copy Tesla's technology, either because they are incapable of it or because they didn't feel there was enough money in it relative to their traditional markets.

> We believe that Tesla, other companies making electric cars, and the world would all benefit from a common, rapidly-evolving technology platform.

In other words, it helps Tesla more to have lots of companies developing electric cars to push back on regulatory barriers and consumer perceptions than it does for them to protect themselves against larger manufacturers copying their technology. Also buried in here is the assumption that Tesla is, now, far enough ahead of its potential competitors that it doesn't matter if they copy the technology.

I think this is the right move for Tesla, but there's a lot of dynamics at play that have nothing to do with the usefulness of patents in general.

replies(4): >>wyager+d6 >>sandst+le >>lotsof+Xp >>samola+U11
2. wyager+d6[view] [source] 2014-06-12 19:17:59
>>rayine+(OP)
>This is the precise thing that patents are designed to prevent: to keep the market from turning into a race to see who can outsource most efficiently to China and inundate the public most completely with advertising.

I have absolutely no idea how you possibly came to this conclusion.

replies(1): >>rayine+d8
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3. rayine+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 19:40:46
>>wyager+d6
When you make it easy to copy innovative designs, companies can really only compete on lower manufacturing costs and more advertising.[1] That's why engineering firms pushed for stronger IP protections through the WTO in the 1990's: Chinese and Korean companies were copying the designs of Cisco, etc, and undercutting them on prices because they didn't have any R&D expenses.

[1] At least when you're talking about physical products that are sold in one-off transactions for money. If you can leverage network effects or lock-in effects, or hide your innovations behind arms-length protocols, like many internet-based companies do, you're not as vulnerable to copycats.

replies(3): >>jcl+Ib >>Theodo+uv >>Joeri+ZZ1
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4. jcl+Ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 20:29:25
>>rayine+d8
That's all true, but it still doesn't follow that patents themselves prevent competition on cost. For example, if a non-practicing patent holder licensed their patent to all interested parties, then the licensees must also compete on cost. So far as I can tell, patents were explicitly designed to allow that scenario, among others.
replies(1): >>jasoni+4F
5. sandst+le[view] [source] 2014-06-12 21:05:35
>>rayine+(OP)
I think it partly an ethical thing. Patents doesn't (most of the time) benefit society, they only create monopolies (which are about as helpful as those in many socialist countries, i.e. not very much).

I think Musk cares more about advancing electric cars than suing and squeeze profits out of patent monopolies.

replies(2): >>soperj+3h >>dredmo+zC
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6. soperj+3h[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 21:35:28
>>sandst+le
Don't know what you have against socialist countries(ie: most of the G7) but you definitely have monopolies in the U.S.
replies(1): >>advent+Uu
7. lotsof+Xp[view] [source] 2014-06-12 23:36:31
>>rayine+(OP)
This is the precise thing that patents are designed to prevent: to keep the market from turning into a race to see who can outsource most efficiently to China and inundate the public most completely with advertising.

Patents were largely designed to enable the state to have a selectively published library of what was being invented in the country and to reduce the power of trade guilds, who had huge power at the time. Offering a limited monopoly backed by force of law was one of the few incentives that worked for acquiring access to the kind of trade secrets you needed to keep your edge on the battlefield.

replies(1): >>cma+JE
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8. advent+Uu[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 01:09:45
>>soperj+3h
The U.S. is a welfare state like most of the G7. The only variance is how the U.S. welfare state is implemented. We're absolutely not a Capitalist country; maybe 30 or 40 years ago we were still a mixed economy. It's about as far away from Capitalism as you can get before crossing over into Venezuelan style Socialism. The US Government has enough power, through numerous means, to directly control every aspect of the economy as it sees fit or if it cares to. The US flavor of Socialism, is going to be Fascism (or totalitarianism, or inverted totalitarianism; whatever the case, the vague generalities are understood).

We definitely have government protected monopolies though, no doubt about that. Tons of them in fact. From defense contractors, to telecom, to banking, to healthcare, and so on. Most major industries are filled with some variation of massive corporations protected from competition by the government.

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9. Theodo+uv[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 01:24:06
>>rayine+d8
There are more ways than that to compete when selling products that are tantamount to commodity.

With Cisco they have a head start on quality or at least the perception of quality, their products are tried and tested. There is also brand value, Cisco is the real deal, it looks dead posh in the rack for 'nobody got sacked for buying IBM' reasons. They also have supply chain advantages, e.g. a dealer network and short lead times for those dealers to get out of stock items. There is also the matter of warranty/returns.

Sure, another company can put together the customer service aspect, however, manufacturing is a very small part of the retail price of a product and it is normally the wider customer service aspects plus brand identity (which includes advertising/marketing) that makes a product succeed in the marketplace.

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10. dredmo+zC[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:27:20
>>sandst+le
There's an argument that strongly protectionist policies are in fact very useful for developing an economy. Protect your own markets, but appropriate other's IP.

See Bad Samaritans by Ha-Joon Chang.

http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9781596915985-7

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11. cma+JE[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 05:48:54
>>lotsof+Xp
Seems weird that you would have them publicly published for your enemies to read if that were the sole motivation.
replies(1): >>lotsof+bN
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12. jasoni+4F[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 06:01:00
>>jcl+Ib
The licenser is afforded the freedom to sell licenses at whatever price they choose, because they have a monopoly on the IP which is being licensed.
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13. lotsof+bN[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 10:39:34
>>cma+JE
You don't. Patents are selectively published according to national security criteria.
replies(1): >>webmav+UW
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14. webmav+UW[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 13:31:37
>>lotsof+bN
Nice distinction between 'reason' and 'rationale'.
replies(1): >>lotsof+Fv1
15. samola+U11[view] [source] 2014-06-13 14:29:11
>>rayine+(OP)
> In other words, it helps Tesla more to have lots of companies developing electric cars to push back on regulatory barriers and consumer perceptions than it does for them to protect themselves against larger manufacturers copying their technology.

Also, so somebody else will help pay for all of the Superchargers they want to build.

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16. lotsof+Fv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 21:11:09
>>webmav+UW
Always be wary of a precise thing as explanation for stuff existing in the real world, doubly so if the stuff predates the thing.
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17. Joeri+ZZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-14 13:35:26
>>rayine+d8
The cisco story was about huawei pirating their software. That's copyright infringement, not patent abuse.

Copyright protection is all you need in the software space to differentiate from your competitors, because in software development the execution is a lot more important than the idea. Well executed versions of old ideas can blow away the competition. See e.g. the iphone, which did less than earlier smartphones, but did it much better. Note also that it wasn't the patents that prevented competitors from catching up, because they ended up ignoring them anyway and still took half a decade to make a competing product despite having access to the same hardware from the beginning.

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