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1. girvo+(OP)[view] [source] 2014-01-26 03:35:49
I disagree entirely. "Brogrammer" is not a well known phenomenon outside of Silicon Valley.
replies(1): >>Jtsumm+x1
2. Jtsumm+x1[view] [source] 2014-01-26 04:09:48
>>girvo+(OP)
I was working in NC for a few years. I did not hear the term "brogrammer", but after leaving there and learning the term, it applied to several companies I knew. The typical setup was younger men with a manager in his 30s or early 40s. It was a tight knit group, they hung out together after hours, drank together, sports activities together, picked up women at bars (or tried to). Strong encouragement to work overtime, and their bonding made this an easier sell. They were doing overtime for <boss's first name>! He needs their help!

It was very much a culture that women did not fit into. And female programmers I knew tended to get put into CM and documentation roles, despite being very good programmers in their own right (better than most of the men in at least one case). And a guy that doesn't drink or want to go hit on chicks together with the boss as a wingman (because they're gay, in a relationship, or just don't enjoy that scene) didn't fit in either. The term may be a Silicon Valley thing, but the phenomenon is not.

replies(1): >>argume+lX
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3. argume+lX[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-26 22:49:46
>>Jtsumm+x1
How is this a culture than women do not fit into? Are women not allowed to go into bars and "hit on" guys? Women are 1/2 of the equation here, if there were no women in bars, guys would have nobody to "hit on".

Btw, this is a phenomenon is certainly not any more common than in other professions .. watch any television show about cops, lawyers, bankers or doctors .. it's just our culture.

replies(2): >>Jtsumm+n01 >>serge2+9w1
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4. Jtsumm+n01[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-26 23:33:16
>>argume+lX
1) Culture on television has rarely matched culture in real life, IME. At best it's an exaggeration, but more often it's just a fabrication.

2) They certainly can, but in this culture it's not uncommon for guys to come back on Monday bragging about the "chicks" they banged, or tried to bang. And that's the sort of language they use. It's crass and classless, and off-putting to many people (not just women, but as they're the group specifically being denigrated it's even worse for them).

replies(1): >>argume+1g1
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5. argume+1g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-27 03:26:42
>>Jtsumm+n01
1) Are you saying this culture is more common amongst programmers than say i-bankers? If so, I think you're delusional or you've never been in manhattan at night.

2) I've never heard my friends who are girls complain about getting in free without cover to nightclubs/bars when guys had to pay cover, and they are well aware of why this is happening.

This is a culture that most people buy into without question .. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just our culture. If you want to change it, then say that's what you want to change, don't go after hackers who, in my experience, are far less into this culture than other demographics.

replies(1): >>hobbit+1J1
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6. serge2+9w1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-27 09:52:53
>>argume+lX
Right, they are, sure.

But what women is going to go out with the team of 5-6 guys to do that?

Of course that begs the question, would a lot of these problems be lessened if there was simply more women?

You can hardly ask guys to stop forming friendships based on things that will often exclude women. It's going to happen. It's a problem when women find their careers suffering because of it, or when they don't get a chance to form friendships they can enjoy at work. Yes, they can be friends with men, but it's going to be harder when it's a bunch of guys who want to go do things that a bunch of guys do.

replies(1): >>argume+KA2
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7. hobbit+1J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-27 14:24:18
>>argume+1g1
>I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just our culture

Let me say it for you then: It's bad.

>If you want to change it, then say that's what you want to change, don't go after hackers who, in my experience, are far less into this culture than other demographics.

"Other people are worse, so these guys are okay."

Yeah, no. Maybe the reason that so many of us are going after hacker culture first is because it is a culture that we are a part of and one that we would like to see make positive changes on these issues first.

replies(1): >>argume+Bn2
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8. argume+Bn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-27 20:17:20
>>hobbit+1J1
>because it is a culture that we are a part of

We are also part of the larger culture. The strategy of going after the use of the semi-word "bro" is going to be entirely ineffectual in reaching the outcome you want.

Reasons:

1. Women are equal participants in the larger culture you claim to abhor. This goes back all the way to childhood, the sports kids play, the clothes you wear, the toys they get etc, who asks who to prom, etc.

2. Failing to participate in that larger culture (i.e. buying girls drinks etc) means you will not realize the benefits of being cool or popular.

3. Even the tiny % of people who are hackers decide to forgo what they had never really had a lot of (popularity, acceptance etc), the effect on society as a whole will be minimal.

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9. argume+KA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-01-27 22:15:17
>>serge2+9w1
Of course it's a problem, but the solution can't be telling people who to be friends with, what to do with their friends and how to talk.

These tactics will simply not achieve anything, other than breeding resentment.

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