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1. recoil+(OP)[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:29:17
The problem is that easy availability of guns amplify the destruction that can be perpetuated by mentally unstable individuals. A similar incident happened in China today where 22 kids were stabbed by one perpetrator but not one had life threatening injuries. What if Walmart China sold guns like the US one does? How many innocent kids would be dead today?

> How much liberty do we all give up, to limit the devastation of the senseless acts of a few?

Liberty? What about the liberty not to get randomly shot down and you or your loved ones' life taken away from you and the people who know you? Isn't the gift of life the supreme liberty taking precedence over the need of some to worship guns?

The ability to take away someone right and liberty to live at a moment's notice borders on a superpower and should be handed out very sparingly to those who absolutely need it to do their job.

replies(1): >>notdru+K2
2. notdru+K2[view] [source] 2012-12-14 19:57:26
>>recoil+(OP)
The right to bear arms isn't some trivial notion to be tossed aside when it is no longer convenient to maintain. It is a fundamental right that was given to the people by those who founded our government that we would be able to fight back against that same government were it to ever become oppressive. Every day, we increasingly see the infringement of our civil liberties, and it seems obvious that the desire of the government to continue broadening its scope of power at our expense is not likely to abate any time soon.

I ask you: if this trend continues, where do you think it leads?

Our guns are our final check against the formation of a potentially oppressive regime; they are our assurance that we will never become helpless, that we will always have the capability to fight if fighting ever becomes necessary. Though it is certainly a great tragedy that these children have died today, how much greater were the tragedies throughout human history that resulted from the excessive centralization of power and a populace that was unable to fight against it? You think that human nature has changed in the last half century; you think that something like that cannot happen again, that it won't happen here? People have not changed; sociopaths still seek power, and when they find it, if the masses have no way of fighting back, they will find themselves dealing with problems many orders of magnitude more horrific than the occasional school shooting. I am familiar with all of the arguments for disarming the people of the United States, and they are all fundamentally flawed, because nothing is worse than being at the mercy of tyrants.

replies(4): >>econno+V3 >>recoil+l5 >>natex+Qg >>codex+Qh
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3. econno+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:07:07
>>notdru+K2
The problem with this argument is that guns would do little to counteract an oppressive government. What about the airplanes, the navy, the artillery that our military possess? Guns are hardly a "final check against the formation of a potentially oppressive regime."
replies(1): >>notdru+M4
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4. notdru+M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:18:50
>>econno+V3
Afghanistan.
replies(1): >>nerfha+q5
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5. recoil+l5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:25:17
>>notdru+K2
The laws made more sense during the 1700s than now. No one really has any chance now. You discount the entire industrial and technological progress that happened in the past 200 years.
replies(1): >>notdru+N5
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6. nerfha+q5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:26:44
>>notdru+M4
It's a foreign occupying power there. Very different record.
replies(1): >>jlgrec+S5
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7. notdru+N5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:29:21
>>recoil+l5
I assume you're making the argument that a ragtag bunch of rebels wouldn't have a chance standing against an empire armed to the teeth with the latest war machines. If that is indeed the case, have you been paying attention to the news for the last decade?
replies(2): >>opinal+Z8 >>codex+di
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8. jlgrec+S5[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 20:30:49
>>nerfha+q5
It is different in many other ways too. For example, the people American soldiers are shooting at (for the most part) speak another language, have a different religion, have a different culture, and look different.
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9. opinal+Z8[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 21:05:35
>>notdru+N5
There is a huge difference between some fourth-world dictatorships, and the US with its nukes, drones, intelligence, $700B/year budget.
replies(1): >>jlgrec+D9
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10. jlgrec+D9[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 21:10:50
>>opinal+Z8
I think you have missed the point. The US DoD, with all of its nukes, drones, intelligence, and cash is having trouble with a "fourth-world dictatorship".
replies(2): >>yozmsn+id >>opinal+du
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11. yozmsn+id[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 22:00:08
>>jlgrec+D9
This! nukes are not a serious weapon of war, their only use is deterrence because they completely rape any place where they're used so that that area is altogether off limits for the remaining life of humanity.
replies(1): >>lostlo+tr
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12. natex+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 22:54:22
>>notdru+K2
Just one point. "Fundamental Rights" are not granted by government. We are born with them. Further, it is government's role -- some say only role -- to protect those rights.
replies(1): >>notdru+Ni
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13. codex+Qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 23:13:39
>>notdru+K2
Hear hear! I only wish the founding fathers had the foresight to anticipate advances in technology. It is my right to carry a nuclear weapon and I don't understand why that isn't more widely recognized.
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14. codex+di[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 23:23:29
>>notdru+N5
This is actually an argument for why an armed populace isn't necessary to defeat oppressive regimes; ultimately the rebels are armed by other interested nations (see: Syria, Libya, Afghanistan).

The US would still be under British rule if it weren't for the support of the French government during the American Revolution. It was not the muskets of American farmers which won that war (though they helped); it was a fleet of French ships, 6,000 French soldiers, a steady supply of French gunpowder and muskets, and approximately $13B (in today's dollars) of direct aid from the French--more if you count French defense spending.

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15. notdru+Ni[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-14 23:38:14
>>natex+Qg
Granted, good catch.
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16. lostlo+tr[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 03:10:16
>>yozmsn+id
I get your point (weapon is too destructive). But it's not quite that bad. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem alright now.
replies(1): >>potato+vx
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17. opinal+du[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 05:13:12
>>jlgrec+D9
Exclusively due to the political costs of waging real war. Modern first-world countries have become too "soft" for war. (Which is a good thing of course.)
replies(1): >>jlgrec+Pv
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18. jlgrec+Pv[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 06:25:11
>>opinal+du
Yeah, I don't think we are going back to strategic/firestorm/nuclear bombing anytime in any foreseeable future.
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19. potato+vx[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 07:31:52
>>lostlo+tr
> "But it's not quite that bad. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem alright now."

This is literally the most callous justification for nuking someone I have ever seen.

"It's not that bad guys. It's habitable now, 70 years later! If you didn't know better you would swear 80,000 didn't get instantly incinerated in nuclear fire, with over 125,000 more who died in slow agony over a few weeks of burns and radiation poisoning!"

I know Stalin said that a million deaths is just a statistic - but you weren't supposed to take Stalin to heart. Just sayin'.

replies(2): >>jlgrec+Rz >>lostlo+2M
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20. jlgrec+Rz[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 09:09:48
>>potato+vx
I don't think he is trying to justify anything...
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21. lostlo+2M[view] [source] [discussion] 2012-12-15 17:41:17
>>potato+vx
I wasn't at all, but I was unclear. I was pointing out that nuclear weapons don't cause places to be uninhabitable for eternity. It is quite clearly incorrect. This is not a reason to use them however. The atomic raids ands the firebombing of Japan are most definitely up there as war crimes.
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