zlacker

With the adoption of sodium batteries, I wouldn’t be surprised if solar panel + sodium battery would outperform this system by a lot.

>>syntax+(OP)
A heat pump gets more heat from a given amount of electricity than if the electricity is use for resistive heating. So the ideal design is solar cell + sodium battery + heat pump.

>>syntax+(OP)
There’s also solar thermal panels that heat up a liquid circulating in the system and cut out the need for a battery - and can just store the heated liquid.

>>coffee+XW
Efficiencies and effects are at the point where taking a photon, converting it into an electron, and using that electron to pump heat is more efficient than turning that photon perfectly into kinetic energy.

Similarly, in mild weather, it is more efficient to burn hydrocarbons and turn it into electricity to run a heat pump than use that hydrocarbon for it's heat energy directly.

Pumping heat is more efficient than making it.

>>mrguyo+DI2
Thermal solar panels have the advantage of being very simple and surprisingly effective. But if you're lacking space to put up both solar cells and thermal, you can use combined panels which have a solar cell with a backing thermal system. The interesting thing is that these combined panels outperform solar cells even when it comes to electricity generated because solar panels loose efficiency as they heat up, so cooling them actually improves efficieny. Combined panels are much more expensive, though.

>>Xylaka+bK2
The problem with thermal solar panels is that you can use its heated water only if it gets warmer than the water in your system, which is not always the case, especially in winter.

Compared to nearly 100% usable energy from normal solar panels.

Furthermore if you have a heatpump you can convert this electric energy into heat energy with a factor of >3 (COP).

>>syntax+(OP)
Climates that need a hot tank of water to buffer for heat pumps, will not have meaningful solar panel output during winter. Or do you mean, just load the battery when electricity is cheap? A tank of water is 1k max, probably 10% of a sodium battery.

>>syntax+(OP)
Even LFP batteries can work out better.

I live in Switzerland where these are available. A Cowa 58 [0] costs CHF 4692 [1] and stores up to 13.5kWh. If you're heating the water with a heat pump, that's ~6kWh of electricity, so ~CHF 782/kWh.

I'm in the process of installing a 33kWh battery and the battery + inverter cost CHF 13600 in total for just the hardware, so ~CHF 482/kWh.

If you add solar panels, the inverter does double-duty producing AC from both the battery and the panels. The battery does double-duty producing both hot water and allowing you to use solar energy outside the times when the sun is shining.

That said, having ordered a heat pump recently and being in the process of having solar + batteries installed, the amount of electrical work needed for the solar/battery install is substantially higher than was needed for the heat pump and here, the labour costs quite a lot, pushing the upfront cost difference even higher.

I think that's where these heat storage things fit in: they have a much lower upfront cost. No matter how cheap the battery, for it to be useful in a Swiss residence, it needs to output a substantial amount of 3-phase power (3-phase is standard here, even in most apartments), which means you need to spend a couple thousand Francs on an inverter and electrical work. These heat storage devices are quite cheap and don't even need someone qualified to handle refrigerants, I imagine they could be installed by a normal plumber.

That reduced upfront cost makes them far more accessible than electrical batteries, at least for now.

[0]: https://www.cowa-ts.com/uploads/files/Dokumente/Datenblaette...

[1]: https://nettoheizungshop.ch/Cowa-COMPACT-Cell-58

>>belvie+na
Also when the temperature differential is lower, so ideal might be solar -> battery (to time shift to warmest outdoor temperature) -> heat pump -> thermal battery (to time shift to when you need heat).

Does seem like a lot of added complexity (and likely machinery cost) though.

>>karuss+ra3
Yeah but if you're in a northern climate your solar panels are only generating like 10% of their summer capacity in the winter anyway due to sun hours/angles... winter is just tough for capturing solar energy in general.

>>gpm+xH3
The question is would it cost less over the long term than any other solution. My intuition is it would, at least for a lot of use cases, but it would need to be put into practice and studied to see if this is actually true.