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1. petcat+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-11-13 16:03:01
> The decision follows the withdrawal of the U.S. from the joint AWACS replacement program in July 2024, which left the initiative without its strategic and financial foundation.

Is this implying that USA was paying for it previously? It sounds like they're blaming "noise polution", but also that they're not getting the planes for free anymore?

replies(3): >>krige+X >>itopal+73 >>jabl+Ki1
2. krige+X[view] [source] 2025-11-13 16:07:28
>>petcat+(OP)
No. Europeans were paying for theirs but, once US backed out of their own purchases, the cost per unit rose sharply and was no longer sustainable.
replies(2): >>petcat+P1 >>jijiji+Eq
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3. petcat+P1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-13 16:11:51
>>krige+X
I see so this isn't really a concerted effort by EU nations to gain independence on defense technology. It's just that USA didn't want to buy the planes anymore so it became too expensive for everyone else to as well.
replies(1): >>krige+Zf
4. itopal+73[view] [source] 2025-11-13 16:17:51
>>petcat+(OP)
Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programs allows the participating countries to share most of the setup cost, except some high end technology that is country specific, it’s mainly divided by per airframe basis.

When you have the US Air Force in a program and they purchase a bazillion aircraft, things get relatively affordable.

Well, the US left and nobody want to spend billions of dollars into the development of this aircraft (most of the problems are the airframe not radar I heard, citation needed) and end up with just two aircraft and then deal with internal news about how they spend billions of dollars per aircraft when commercial airlines are so much cheaper.

replies(1): >>VWWHFS+05
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5. VWWHFS+05[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-13 16:26:40
>>itopal+73
It kind of sounds like the USAF did the EU countries a favor then. If they're not interested in the technology anymore then it prevented all those countries from investing billions in a fleet of lemons.
replies(1): >>itopal+k7
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6. itopal+k7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-13 16:37:25
>>VWWHFS+05
It’s only a bad news for Boeing and by association the US defense industry, though everyone knew the program was cooked when the US decided to leave.

Boing stock didn’t even fall down as much as the S&P500 so one can assume that this was already taken into account.

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7. krige+Zf[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-13 17:15:53
>>petcat+P1
Or perhaps pulling out of the program was too costly, political or otherwise, for EU and USA did them a huge favor by blundering away from it first, freeing them to pursue their goals.
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8. jijiji+Eq[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-13 18:00:03
>>krige+X
Europeans were blown off, when America unexpectedly pulled out like a Boeing door.
replies(1): >>kybore+8F1
9. jabl+Ki1[view] [source] 2025-11-13 22:30:47
>>petcat+(OP)
They are complaining about the noise level of the existing E-3, which is based on the old Boeing 707 with old noisy low bypass turbofans. The new plane E-7 is based on a contemporary 737 so no more noisy than a regular commercial jetliner.
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10. kybore+8F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-14 01:44:43
>>jijiji+Eq
I'm quite impressed with Europeans' entitled attitudes towards the US security umbrella.

First of all, none of this should be "unexpected"--Obama famously announced a pivot to Asia well over a decade ago. What exactly did Europeans think that meant?

Second, European military intransigence has dramatically escalated the risk of a devastating war affecting both US and Europe, and the US is simply overextended. The US cannot bring sufficient military power to bear to defend the Pacific, European, and Arctic theaters simultaneously. European NATO members simply must pull their own weight now; reaffirming European luxury beliefs like "we don't need to prepare for war because Uncle Sam has got us covered" would be doing both US and Europe a dis-service. Many presidents have tried more polite pleading and cajoling in less critical times, with evidently poor results.

Finally, the asymmetry of expectations is remarkable. Europeans clearly expect the US not just to fight Russia with them, but to fight Russia for them. Yet no Americans expect European forces to come to the US's rescue in the Pacific--and European commenters online make very clear that that expectation is correct. Consequently, many Americans are skeptical of the value NATO membership brings, while seeing clearly its risks and costs.

If you want America to remain engaged in European security, y'all need to get much more serious about fielding an effective military force and clearly commit to helping the US against China in every way possible. And if you don't want America to remain engaged in European security, y'all need to get even more serious about fielding an effective military force.

So put your heads down, get to work, and quit it with the hyperbolic butthurt comments about "unexpectedly" being "blown off".

replies(2): >>kybore+rY1 >>jijiji+9e2
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11. kybore+rY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-14 05:21:05
>>kybore+8F1
I realize I was probably too oblique before, so let me be more specific.

The US has pivoted from traditional AWACS to the proliferated warfighter space architecture, the idea being hundreds of LEO satellites can provide a cheaper and much more survivable (not to mention persistent) air moving-target indicator capability. There is substantial project risk, but the US is resource constrained and cannot afford to fund everything under the sun.

European NATO nations don't currently need something so fancy and without the US, E-7's per-unit costs would be too high. But the US now prioritizes its needs in the Pacific theater (where those E-7s would not be survivable) over Europe's security interests (cheap, capable traditional AWACS). That's the pivot to Asia in action.

I don't even think that this outcome is bad for Europe. It's a reminder that Europe's needs are not America's priority, which helps to light a sorely-needed fire under European asses. Europe will buy GlobalEye or some Airbus platform, and the US will have a decent alternative available if the PWSA doesn't work out. It's also a potential opportunity for European NATO countries to contribute to PWSA, Starshield, and/or Golden Dome and more visibly and tangibly contribute to NATO's mutual defense.

replies(1): >>krige+Bb2
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12. krige+Bb2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-14 08:19:11
>>kybore+rY1
It is worth pointing out that US' potential adversary in the Pacific region is known for boasting its "robust" anti-satellite capabilities, so it is difficult to see this move as anything but wasteful and potentially dangerous to other LEO satellites.
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13. jijiji+9e2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-11-14 08:46:09
>>kybore+8F1
Dude, it's a joke about Boeing doors getting lost mid flight. You know, the thing that happened recently and made quite some news?

Maaaybe you should introspect a bit about how a single thoughtless sentence on some web forum could possibly inspire you to write an essay about European entitlement. Is this American vulnerability?

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