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[parent] [thread] 15 comments
1. vinter+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-10-01 08:21:59
Something that I think normal, decent people don't appreciate enough: you can join an organization without believing a word of what it stands for. It's perfectly possible to just pretend. It doesn't take a ton of resources or a big coordinated conspiracy to join and betray an organization, it just takes a bit of self-confidence, or chutzpah.

One person I believe knows this, is Keir Starmer. It's very hard to explain why things happen in UK politics without assuming he is trying to tank Labour.

replies(5): >>Aromas+G6 >>fakeda+D7 >>permo-+jv >>physic+IH >>smasha+qD2
2. Aromas+G6[view] [source] 2025-10-01 09:44:50
>>vinter+(OP)
What one might contribute to malice can normally be attributed to ignorance. I think the political class in the UK is just completely bifurcated from the public (not as much as the Tories were, but more than I though Labour would be), such that every decision senior Labour leaders are making is lauded in progressively smaller circles they keep and they're oblivious to the reality of the situation. They just don't feel the condemnation of the general public. I think current Labour genuinely thinks their popularity is higher than it is polling, and that they're doing what people want.

To caveate this, I am a Labour member (with the goal of advising tech policy such that they don't send our tech industry off a sharp cliff). I've spoken to a few in the cabinet now about growth and industrial policy, and there's no appetite for engagement outside of their think-tanks. I go to the conferences today, and in contrast to the Tory government days where the main topic of conversation was "what do people want" and "how do we gain seats in the election", it's now all navel-gazing about how "well" their policies poll (vs how well the party does, as if they're the same thing). It's baffling how out of touch the current power brokers are regarding the danger Labour are in. There's rose-tinted glasses, and then there's obsidian-tinted horse blinders.

replies(2): >>vinter+Dd >>pyuser+2L2
3. fakeda+D7[view] [source] 2025-10-01 09:58:35
>>vinter+(OP)
If Starmer were trying to do this alone, then what are the other ministers doing? The UK is a parliamentary democracy, not a presidential government, so it's not just him, it's the rest of the Labour stooges too.
replies(2): >>nickdo+Ql >>RobotT+fm
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4. vinter+Dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 11:08:57
>>Aromas+G6
Malice is a strong word. I think they (because as another commenter points out, he can't do this entirely alone) primarily just don't care, and secondarily, just assume there's going to be a reward. They aren't told by some shadowy cabal there's going to be a reward, they just assume it.

It's not an unreasonable assumption either. Nick Clegg did seemingly get rewarded for tanking the lib Dems. The ones lower in the party hierarchy will also have seen plenty of examples of pyrrhic loyalty being rewarded.

What modern parties effectively teach - UK Labour is just one of many examples, not even the only example in the UK - is that the supreme political virtue is loyalty to decisions taken in rooms you weren't invited to. That, they think, will eventually get them invited to those rooms.

The sad thing is that whether the rooms actually exist or not, the result is much the same.

"Don't obey in advance" is Tim Snyder's first rule against tyranny. While that is a great moral rule to follow in tyrannies, all organizations want people to obey beforehand, whether tyrannies or not. It's called showing initiative, doing what's needed without having to be told explicitly, and no organisation can function without it.

But in organizations with opaque power structures, where it's expected that decisions are taken unaccountably ("Noen har snakket sammen", loosely, "There has been discussion", used to be an ironic phrase in the Norwegian Labour Party), people may easily slip into obeying in advance a tyrant who doesn't even exist. They're trying to please the responsible people who are surely in charge somewhere nebulously above them in the hierarchy, but those people don't exist, it's bullshitters like Starmer all the way to the top.

Snyder's had his first rule, but I have a first rule too, which I keep repeating, and that is that powerful people believe in all the stupid things regular people believe in. They just act differently on the beliefs. A common person who thinks covid was an ethnically targeted bioweapon rants about it online and gets banned from Reddit. A powerful person who believes it, thinks "it's important that we too get such a weapon, and don't trust experts who say it can't be done, they probably just have scruples". A common person who thinks a Jewish cabal rules the world maybe pesters his relatives with it all day. A powerful person who believes it - well, he's more likely to do something like what Starmer has been doing the last decade. You don't try to fight Bilderberg, obviously, you try to get invited to it. Once you do, (like e.g Jens Stoltenberg was) you probably get disappointed and try to figure out who the real competent ones behind them too are, and how to join them - but you're not terribly disappointed, because on the way up you've been rewarded by all the others who thought they'd be rewarded for supporting someone like you.

replies(2): >>Tarsul+ti >>flir+dp
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5. Tarsul+ti[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 11:59:58
>>vinter+Dd
I think to understand Starmer is to understand that he comes from a public prosecutors position and he still thinks like it. Which is why everything that screens "justice" is highest on his agenda, this means that privacy-invading things are justified if law & order can catch more perpetrators. Also explains why he is totally helpless wrt the economy (not his forte).
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6. nickdo+Ql[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 12:30:09
>>fakeda+D7
Power is very concentrated in the PM's office and with the Cabinet Secretary. Even to the point where individual ministers are relatively weak within the system. One of the common lines you can find in almost any political autobiography in the UK (last... say... 30-40 years) goes something like "I entered government eager to grasp the levers of power, but never managed to truly find them".
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7. RobotT+fm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 12:32:12
>>fakeda+D7
The central party has frequently removed left wing candidates elected by local constituency members and imposes right wing blairite candidates by diktat.
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8. flir+dp[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 12:53:10
>>vinter+Dd
Interesting comment. I don't think Starmer's trying to get invited to a Shadowy Jewish Cabal, though. That's... a bit out there.

Simpler take: The middle ground has been hollowed out. The old method (appeal to the centre) does not appear to be working. Starmer's throwing stunt policies at the wall to try to get some purchase.

replies(1): >>vinter+ut
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9. vinter+ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 13:18:22
>>flir+dp
> That's... a bit out there.

It certainly is. And he'd maybe use more classy words for it, if he ever could be convinced to talk about his sincere beliefs. But as I said, I'm fully convinced that powerful people believe all the out there things that regular people believe. We've seen so many examples of it over the decades, and it's otherwise very hard to explain why Starmer would keep doing things which are neither a popular thing to do or the right thing to do.

The simpler take you propose doesn't work for me, because "throwing things at the wall" suggest unpredictability to me, and Starmer has been very predictable if you assume what I have been assuming for a few years now. His actions are not the actions of someone who would try anything, quite the opposite.

replies(1): >>HankSt+Nw
10. permo-+jv[view] [source] 2025-10-01 13:29:11
>>vinter+(OP)
something I think that needs to be taken into account here is that for 14 years the Tories made decisions far more harmful, far more disconnected, and--in isolation--far less popular with the public than anything Labour has even considered doing, and yet for most of that time actually gained in popularity. why? because most voters in this country read and read news sources in favour of right-wing politics, and even the news sources that are more "left-wing"--The Mirror and The Guardian--aren't as sycophantic anyway. if Labour had the sycophantic media support that the Tories or even Reform do, none of you in this thread would be saying any of this. you may ask "who even reads newspapers these days", but this is not really a useful point, as many people may not read them directly, but they still broadly set the narrative, the tone and the cycle, even if you're hearing it second or third hand via social media

this isn't to say that Keir Starmer is doing an amazing job. he's not. he's far too comfortable with authoritarianism and far too establishmentarian, and I would much rather someone like Andy Burnham in charge--even if you can trust his policy positions just as much as Starmer's from when he won the leadership--just because he has some energy and charisma about him, and you feel like he might be able to counteract Farage somewhat, but, at the same time, the level of scrutiny of Labour is incredibly unfair and before you criticise them yourself, you have to try and remember that you're viewing it all through that filter

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11. HankSt+Nw[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-01 13:36:27
>>vinter+ut
Yeah, there's normal political corruption and graft, and then there are some who go above and beyond, taking unnecessarily destructive actions that don't even appear to benefit them in any visible way. Usually you can say, "So-and-so did X because Y," even if you disagree with X or think Y is a bad reason. You can at least see the motive.

When the action is clearly going to hurt their political career, and there's no indication that it will put money in their pockets, and they don't even make much of an attempt to claim they're fighting for a principle, yet they clearly have a purpose in mind and keep doubling-down on it, you have to start looking for a motive somewhere else. "They hate their own people" comes to mind, but that's not really an answer because it still leaves you looking for the reason why they hate their own people. Not all leaders do, after all.

12. physic+IH[view] [source] 2025-10-01 14:38:23
>>vinter+(OP)
> It's very hard to explain why things happen in UK politics without assuming he is trying to tank Labour.

Or they just focused on getting into government with very little plan about what to do when there, and with a particularly inexperienced team (few former cabinet ministers in the elected Labour MPs).

13. smasha+qD2[view] [source] 2025-10-02 01:57:31
>>vinter+(OP)
The Starmer Cabinet's entire history points to the fact they they were engineered to take over in order to deliver 2 things: 1. The Holocaust of Gaza 2. A red carpet for Foreign Agent Traitor Langley Farage to take over.

If they cared about the country - they don't, they have complete contempt for the public - they would step down, dissolve the party and those in the party with a remaining qubit of morality put their efforts into atoning for their sins and crimes against freedom by working to get a Green/YP/LibDem coalition elected.

Every day they lolligag with this dead party is another vote for Reform - they know this.

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14. pyuser+2L2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-02 03:43:18
>>Aromas+G6
Labour thought it was a good idea to follow Corbyn. I don’t mean that an insult or a gotcha. But it was not a well thought out plan.

The part about only listening to their own think tanks is weird. Academia leans left. American conservatives are suspicious of advice not from their think-tanks, but that’s because it’s hostile territory. The Democrats treat the university/expert/consultant class as free labor.

I don’t mean to be critical of your country especially given who is running America. But we do watch, and it has an impact here. Fear of an American Corbyn is one reason Democrats aren’t veering left.

Also I don’t know if this is related, but the fact that the US is about to install Tony Blair to head Gaza should make you rethink Labour’s capacity for thought.

replies(1): >>Urahan+dG3
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15. Urahan+dG3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-02 13:59:52
>>pyuser+2L2
Its interesting that you mention Corbyn when if you look into the data Starmer got much lower voters than he did but the UK system works in strange ways. I should mention I was one of those that refused to vote for Corbyn on the allegations of anti-semitism but those later turned out to be untrue.

One thing I have to ask about the democrats and a fear of Corbynism is shutting down primaries really and effective way to prevent one? Voters aren't stupid and the not being able to freely choose their candidate since Obama isn't going to help.

replies(1): >>Vagabu+rr9
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16. Vagabu+rr9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-10-04 08:56:03
>>Urahan+dG3
Yeah I believe there was a smear campaign - some of it based on some definite instances - Corbyn could have survived but I don't think he had the political chops. I think he probably had too much integrity to do what really needed to do to stay in power and become PM.

As your closest neighbor I think about how things could have been.

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