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[parent] [thread] 17 comments
1. johnis+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-07-23 13:30:20
I cannot say I am surprised. You care about your privacy -> you are a criminal. "If you are not a criminal, you have nothing to hide.". sighs.

I wish people realized that privacy and civil liberties exist regardless of guilt. Rights like freedom of speech, due process, and privacy aren't just for people doing something wrong. They're foundational protections that exist to prevent abuse (by cops, too).

replies(5): >>zeta01+r2 >>osigur+q7 >>lo_zam+Yc >>Fergus+pj >>4bpp+Mr
2. zeta01+r2[view] [source] 2025-07-23 13:45:56
>>johnis+(OP)
I maintain that if the NSA ever really needs to know something, if I somehow possess critical knowledge in a legitimate matter of national security, they are welcome to visit. (They'll have to settle for coffee, I'm not much of a tea drinker.) In this way, I really do have nothing to hide. But I do insist on knowing about it in the moment.

Outside of that very narrow context, they may kindly deal with my communications being secured by default, because if there is a path they can use to decrypt my data, the criminals can also find, exploit, and use that same path. Rather easily, as it turns out. (See: various data breaches, password leaks, company after company getting caught with unsecured S3 buckets containing encryption keys, etc etc.) It's not the law I'm hiding from, but those individuals who would steal every one of my digital assets given the opportunity.

In the specific context of Android, the thing I'm trying to dodge isn't even legal snooping or criminal activity, but specifically marketing. Google is terribly interested in my browsing habits, and so having my smartphone not run their services at all is an excellent way to reduce that flow of information from my device to a third party that I don't particularly trust.

replies(5): >>BLKNSL+X4 >>soulof+i8 >>simpat+ma >>kristi+Uf >>gosub1+as
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3. BLKNSL+X4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 14:02:08
>>zeta01+r2
Don't forget supply chain attacks opening doors and windows all over the shop.
4. osigur+q7[view] [source] 2025-07-23 14:17:40
>>johnis+(OP)
[flagged]
replies(3): >>bigstr+Ab >>lo_zam+Ld >>dang+hm1
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5. soulof+i8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 14:22:36
>>zeta01+r2
Not just criminals. Your own government can be co-opted and suddenly things like IRS records for honest taxpayers become weaponized deportation lists.
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6. simpat+ma[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 14:34:28
>>zeta01+r2
Avoiding marketing surveillance is both reasonable and increasingly sought after; consider how many mainstream services now offer paid options just to reduce data collection by advertisers.

Modern surveillance states operate on the premise that every individual, out of billions worldwide, could become a potential threat. To manage this, governments have developed and deployed mass surveillance technologies that far exceed the scope of traditional law enforcement. This environment results in routine circumvention—both legal and extra-legal—of civil liberties and privacy protections, such as the 4th amendment, in the name of national security.

We saw this play out dramatically with the Snowden revelations, which exposed systemic, warrantless collection of communications by agencies such as the NSA. Surveillance is not conducted only for clear national emergencies. It is often routine, preemptive, and opportunistic—and the scale is massive, not targeted only at 'bad actors'.

This reality creates a profound power imbalance. Those who control surveillance infrastructure possess the ability—and in some cases, the legal clearance—to act against individuals or groups for reasons ranging from strategic interests to petty personal motives. There have been numerous documented cases of abuse of surveillance powers by insiders seeking to settle personal scores and, internationally, governments using this capability to quash dissent (for example, China’s censorship and criminalization of government criticism)

Once the technology and precedent for ubiquitous surveillance are in place, the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate use blurs dangerously. The potential for abuse is inherent, especially when oversight is weak or accountability is lacking, which is everywhere.

While companies like Google pose significant privacy concerns and “opting out” of their ecosystems is prudent for reducing commercial data exploitation, the larger threat comes from the normalization of universal, warrantless surveillance by state actors.

replies(1): >>potato+7p
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7. bigstr+Ab[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 14:42:20
>>osigur+q7
The course you suggest would itself damage the social fabric of democracy. Not really a good idea, though it might be cathartic.
replies(2): >>LocalH+9f >>johnis+Mm
8. lo_zam+Yc[view] [source] 2025-07-23 14:50:35
>>johnis+(OP)
The idea that privacy is only for those doing something evil is so brain damaged, I cannot understand how anyone took that seriously.

No, privacy is for protecting good things from evil people. And frankly, it's more than that. Privacy is necessary even when no evil intent exists in either the observer or the observed. It is necessary for various relationships to flourish and for human beings to flourish. It isn't good for your neighbors to watch you making love with your wife, or for you to watch them doing so. Social boundaries are important. Failing to respect them is to claim an authority you do not have.

It's similar to the principle of subsidiarity: you want the right people involved in the right things at the right times. Removing privacy smushes everything together, and I claim that this flattening effect is one of the reasons for the mental illness that's catalyzed by social media.

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9. lo_zam+Ld[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 14:54:35
>>osigur+q7
It's not a specifically "democratic" thing. It's a moral question, and good monarchies that are grounded in a strong moral tradition and a respect for subsidiarity can be much better at resisting the ebb and flow of mass sentiment manipulated by the media. The war on terror showed us how easily fear can be deployed to get the masses to hurt themselves, and revolutions show how envy and grievance can be deployed in a similar fashion.
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10. LocalH+9f[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 15:00:39
>>bigstr+Ab
It's like the tolerance of intolerance.
replies(1): >>johnis+Qm
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11. kristi+Uf[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 15:03:51
>>zeta01+r2
One of life's bizarre contradictions that it's largely down to Google that some of the most egregious and shady third party techniques for tracking and fingerprinting devices that dominated the 2010s no longer work.
12. Fergus+pj[view] [source] 2025-07-23 15:22:33
>>johnis+(OP)
If I am not a criminal you should not need to tap my phone
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13. johnis+Mm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 15:38:33
>>bigstr+Ab
I wanted to reply to him "that would definitely make me a criminal".
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14. johnis+Qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 15:39:04
>>LocalH+9f
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
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15. potato+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 15:52:10
>>simpat+ma
>Modern surveillance states operate on the premise that every individual, out of billions worldwide, could become a potential threat.

Because these states are so extractive of their populace and engage in so much evil that any given person constitutes a potential threat. They're worried that anyone could just wake up one day and decide to be the next uncle Ted or whatever.

16. 4bpp+Mr[view] [source] 2025-07-23 16:06:36
>>johnis+(OP)
I would go further and say that even if these things are for criminals, that is okay; and allowing some amount of criminal activity is necessitated by the basic humility of conceding that we might not have figured out the best set of rules for humanity to live under.

It might be appealing to fantasise about catching all the criminals and stopping all their dastardly deeds, but where would we be now if our governments had this capability 30 years ago? ...90? ...270? Would we be happier today if the last 1000 years had passed completely free of theft, murder, pederasty, and also free of blasphemy, heresy and challenges to the divine right of kings? Today, we are grateful for the actions of many a disgusting criminal that would have been condemned by any respectable and well-adjusted member of society (including you, had you lived then) at the time. Who knows which ones of today's criminals we will be thanking 30 years into the future?

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17. gosub1+as[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 16:08:10
>>zeta01+r2
I think what this is really about is the ability to manipulate elections. Panopticon surveillance means it will inevitably dig up dirt on a presidential or other candidate somewhere down the line. Then once they have a shot at winning, pull them aside and say "do what we say and you can maybe win, or we can force your loss now when the story breaks about how you used the n word once in 8th grade"
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18. dang+hm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-07-23 21:33:06
>>osigur+q7
Please don't do tropes like this here. You can make your substantive points without that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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