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1. toomuc+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-05-28 15:27:17
GE [1]? Boeing [2] [3]? The stocks go up because management and shareholders pull forward the gains as financialization destroys the long term value of the enterprises. Works until it doesn't.

[1] Power Failure: The downfall of General Electric - >>44102034 - May 2025

[2] Fatal Recklessness at Boeing Traces Back to Long-Standing C-Suite Greed - https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/boeing-corporate-... - April 9th, 2024

[3] HN Search: Boeing - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

replies(3): >>Walter+A >>Aunche+8b >>badpun+Yz
2. Walter+A[view] [source] 2025-05-28 15:31:01
>>toomuc+(OP)
Boeing consistently went up for many decades prior to the MAX crisis. So did GE.

Companies have life cycles. They grow until they become unable to function efficiently anymore, then they go down.

It's not about prioritizing short term results.

replies(6): >>palmot+W1 >>grumpy+y3 >>bumby+H7 >>tricer+wf >>dsr_+Nl >>saghm+hX
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3. palmot+W1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 15:37:07
>>Walter+A
>> GE [1]? Boeing [2] [3]? The stocks go up because management and shareholders pull forward the gains as financialization destroys the long term value of the enterprises. Works until it doesn't.

> Boeing consistently went up for many decades prior to the MAX crisis. So did GE.

The point is they could have probably kept going up if they hadn't done that.

It's like how if you choose to eat your seed corn, you'll be fat and happy for a season, then you and your family will certainly starve to death next year. You'd most likely had lived if you hadn't made that short-term decision.

> Companies have life cycles. They grow until they become unable to function efficiently anymore, then they go down.

And how often are the "life cycles" really just the accumulation of bad short-term decisions catching up with the company?

You can kludge and kludge and kludge, but eventually that makes the app unmaintainable. Then you're in "total rewrite" or go under territory.

replies(3): >>Walter+M4 >>bumby+jZ >>TeMPOr+B51
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4. grumpy+y3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 15:46:09
>>Walter+A
Boeing has consistently underperformed the market massively since the MD merger. Making maybe 3% after inflation
replies(1): >>Walter+X3
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5. Walter+X3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 15:48:20
>>grumpy+y3
The vast bulk of Boeing's history was before that.
replies(1): >>Camper+cu
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6. Walter+M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 15:51:22
>>palmot+W1
> The point is they could have probably kept going up if they hadn't done that.

No company goes up forever. They all eventually strangle themselves with bureaucratic inefficiency.

replies(5): >>palmot+u7 >>fragme+2a >>komali+Ng >>jimbok+2L >>tremon+bb3
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7. palmot+u7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:05:26
>>Walter+M4
> No company goes up forever. They all eventually strangle themselves with bureaucratic inefficiency.

So they should act to strangle themselves faster? It feels like your reasoning is equivalent to, "Eventually you'll die, so there's no point taking care of your health. Go save money by avoiding the doctor, take up smoking, and eat junk food all the time."

replies(1): >>Walter+2d
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8. bumby+H7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:07:16
>>Walter+A
>It’s not about prioritizing short term results

Boeing was forced by courts bolster safety, compliance, and quality programs as well as admitting to conspiracy to thwart FAA oversight. I don’t know about you, but my experience is that when companies undermine those types of oversight, it’s almost always due to schedule and price pressure (ie short term results). (Not to mention, the whole impetus for MCAS was to rush the design to market so they wouldn’t lose out on AA as a customer).

replies(1): >>Walter+Wc
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9. fragme+2a[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:18:33
>>Walter+M4
Forever is a long time, but eg Nintendo has been around in some form or another since 1889, so that doesn't seem like a given.
replies(1): >>Walter+hd
10. Aunche+8b[view] [source] 2025-05-28 16:29:45
>>toomuc+(OP)
> Fatal Recklessness at Boeing Traces Back to Long-Standing C-Suite Greed

I suspect this is true to a certain extent, but IMO this narrative has been exaggerated to the point where it is completely useless. If Boeing execs were only focused on "short term profits," how did commercial aviation deaths decrease despite there being significantly more flights?

https://www.statista.com/chart/4854/commercial-aviation-deat...

replies(1): >>toomuc+eb
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11. toomuc+eb[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:30:38
>>Aunche+8b
> Works until it doesn't.

Boeing 737 Max: The troubled history of fatal crashes and 346 deaths in 7 years - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/busi... - July 8th, 2024

As Boeing looks to buy a key 737 supplier [Spirit AeroSystems], a whistleblower says the problems run deep - https://www.npr.org/2024/06/16/nx-s1-4998520/boeing-737-spir... - June 16th, 2024

Boeing’s Decline Traced to Decades of Catering to Shareholders Above All Others - https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/boeings-decline-traced-... - April 8th, 2024

Boeing’s long fall, and how it might recover - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... - April 7th, 2024

replies(1): >>Aunche+uj
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12. Walter+Wc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:40:30
>>bumby+H7
Again, the vast bulk of Boeing's history was before that.

> the whole impetus for MCAS was to rush the design to market so they wouldn’t lose out on AA as a customer

The impetus for MCAS was to make the MAX behave like the previous 737 model to reduce the expense of retraining the pilots.

In general, flying is safer when pilots do not need to "code switch" when switching airplane models. Many crashes result from a pilot reflexively doing the right thing for the previous airplane they flew, rather than the one they are flying at the moment.

replies(1): >>bumby+qe
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13. Walter+2d[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:41:19
>>palmot+u7
> So they should act to strangle themselves faster?

Come on.

replies(1): >>palmot+HA
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14. Walter+hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:42:38
>>fragme+2a
> in some form or another

I.e. they've been reinventing the business. They were probably burned to the ground in WW2 and had to rebuild the business from scratch.

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15. bumby+qe[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:47:32
>>Walter+Wc
>Again, the vast bulk of Boeing's history was before that.

I’m not sure what you intend to convey with this statement. If price reflects reality, the current price should reflect the current reality, no? Whether the White Sox were the best team 100 years ago has little bearing on my prediction about their chances this year. I fail to see how Boeing’s prior culture prevents them from succumbing to short term incentives. I know your point is the downfall is a bureaucratic one, but the evidence does not point to that (they actually cut corners on bureaucratic requirements).

>The impetus for MCAS was to make the MAX behave like the previous 737 model to reduce the expense of retraining the pilots.

Go deeper. Why was this considered necessary?

(Hint: it’s because they wanted to rush the design to market with a less expensive (and lower quality) product. Ie cost and schedule pressure. You stopped at the proximate cause.)

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16. tricer+wf[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:52:36
>>Walter+A
> They grow until they become unable to function efficiently anymore, then they go down

But why?

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17. komali+Ng[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 16:58:15
>>Walter+M4
Perhaps that's the trick to longevity then, not seeking endless growth. All the oldest companies on earth seem to small, geographically contained entities (e.g., hotels, restaurants) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
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18. Aunche+uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 17:14:58
>>toomuc+eb
Are there actually more issues or are people just more aware of them? Like I said, commercial airline flights are significantly safer than they were in Boeing's supposed golden era despite these publicized scandals.
replies(1): >>toomuc+Hj
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19. toomuc+Hj[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 17:16:16
>>Aunche+uj
If your position is "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people" we may be unable to meet on this topic. How many deaths would be sufficient? I argue the decline in fatalities over time is due to commercial air traffic regulations and systems.

https://news.mit.edu/2024/study-flying-keeps-getting-safer-0...

replies(1): >>Aunche+Ms
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20. dsr_+Nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 17:24:27
>>Walter+A
The book on GE is specifically about how they lied, cheated, and committed fraud -- er, accounting irregularities -- for decades, in order to maintain the illusion of number goes up predictably.

In retrospect, it was exactly as unlikely as Madoff's numbers.

replies(1): >>spwa4+Wzp
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21. Aunche+Ms[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 18:00:47
>>toomuc+Hj
> "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people"

It should be clear that is not what I meant. This reinforces my view that popular criticism towards Boeing is unhelpful and ironically is relevant to the posted essay. People care more about gotchas more than deep discussion.

If the 737 Max incidents were due to negligence on Boeing's part, the many of the incidents in the 70s were also due to negligence. You can't have it both ways.

replies(3): >>toomuc+Vu >>bumby+GX >>pegasu+g32
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22. Camper+cu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 18:09:39
>>Walter+X3
Right, and isn't that everyone's point? When their focus was on the product, they excelled.
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23. toomuc+Vu[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 18:15:18
>>Aunche+Ms
It’s not meant as a gotcha. It’s meant to illustrate that the effects of financialization, stripping an enterprise of its value, and the culture that enables this (of which short termism is a component) can take some time for the symptoms to surface. Boeing cared more about profits than safety, this is what the evidence shows. If you disagree, of course, you’re entitled to your opinion. I believe I’ve supported my thesis adequately with citations. It was a long corporate journey to the crash sites, but the journey is well documented.

(GE also took substantial time to fall apart, but with no deaths to my knowledge)

replies(1): >>spwa4+Yyp
24. badpun+Yz[view] [source] 2025-05-28 18:45:08
>>toomuc+(OP)
Boeing stock price still almost doubled in the past 10 years. Went up by hundreds of percent in the past two decades. GE stock is worth 40x what it was worth 40 years ago, when Jack Welsh took over management! These two seem like two very successful companies, led by succesful strategies.
replies(2): >>immibi+oL >>int_19+sZ1
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25. palmot+HA[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 18:49:07
>>Walter+2d
Being relentlessly focused on the short term will do that, eventually.

You seem to think the assumption "all companies die" means you can simplify away their journey, but it matters if they get there faster or slower (at least to society, if not the decision-makers to maximize their personal profit while hoping to not being the ones left holding the bag).

replies(1): >>nradov+nL
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26. jimbok+2L[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 19:45:26
>>Walter+M4
But there's a lot of variance in how long it takes for a company to reach that point.

Some fight it off longer than others.

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27. nradov+nL[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 19:47:27
>>palmot+HA
Old companies die and new ones take their place. This is not a problem for society. In most cases creative destruction is a net positive.
replies(1): >>palmot+Bz1
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28. immibi+oL[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 19:47:31
>>badpun+Yz
A lot of things did. Seems like prices much tend to rise faster than inflation.
replies(1): >>badpun+8h2
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29. saghm+hX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 21:14:32
>>Walter+A
> Companies have life cycles. They grow until they become unable to function efficiently anymore, then they go down.

> It's not about prioritizing short term results.

Why did they need to grow in the first place though? If a company is already profitable, and growing will end up making them less functional and eventually erode profits, that sounds like it's due to prioritizing short-term results over long-term stable profits.

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30. bumby+GX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 21:16:56
>>Aunche+Ms
>If the 737 Max incidents were due to negligence on Boeing's part, the many of the incidents in the 70s were also due to negligence.

They don’t necessarily have to be classified as the same contributing factors. The de Haviland Comet may have failed due to our lack of understanding of metal fatigue with a pressurized cabin. That was engineering ignorance. If a manufacturer did the same today, it’s negligence because those are known engineering principles.

Boeing was knowingly not following their own procedures for safety critical design. They also admitted to conspiracy to circumvent FAA oversight. Which of the above categories would you put those in?

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31. bumby+jZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 21:31:09
>>palmot+W1
>And how often are the "life cycles" really just the accumulation of bad short-term decisions catching up with the company?

I do think technical debt is a real problem, but to play devils advocate, the “life-cycle” is often a pivot from “innovation” to “maintenance”. Companies rightly begin to focus on the aspects of business that make them money and will often cannibalize R&D to focus on high-margin areas. That’s why “mature” companies often focus on innovation via acquisition.

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32. TeMPOr+B51[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-28 22:35:52
>>palmot+W1
> It's like how if you choose to eat your seed corn, you'll be fat and happy for a season, then you and your family will certainly starve to death next year. You'd most likely had lived if you hadn't made that short-term decision.

Part of that is probably embedded in the environment. The market favors risk-taking. Everyone is dipping into their seed corn, hoping they can use the extra energy they have now to secure some new corn and cover for the surplus. Sometimes they can't, and they starve. More importantly though, anyone who didn't dip into their seed corn is no longer there - risking a bit gives you a competitive advantage over those who risk less.

This dynamics plays at multiple levels in large companies, and arguably is deeply embedded in the overall business culture.

It's not totally irrational either - "eating your seed corn" sounds stupid in isolation, but the calculus changes when every village around you is at war with you and everyone else, all while the whole region gets hammered by natural disasters. Saving the seed corn to survive the next year may end up killing you next week.

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33. palmot+Bz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 04:24:28
>>nradov+nL
> Old companies die and new ones take their place. This is not a problem for society. In most cases creative destruction is a net positive.

That's what they say, but I don't think it's true (at the high end, at least). For instance: if Boeing dies, the market will not replace it. It'll be an Airbus monopoly for large jets, and maybe the the communists will eventually build a competitor (Comac). IIRC, it's too expesnive for Embraer to make the jump into that market.

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34. int_19+sZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 10:43:37
>>badpun+Yz
Do stock prices even meaningfully represent anything anymore? Looking at some valuations makes me feel like it has all devolved entirely into gambling.
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35. pegasu+g32[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 11:29:23
>>Aunche+Ms
We've learned a lot since then. Every time there's an accident, we learn from it and adjust the safety procedures. Incidents going down over time is to be expected, can't compare outcomes today with the past, after so much accummulated experience.
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36. badpun+8h2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 13:17:09
>>immibi+oL
A lot of badly managed companies (or just companies in stagnant industries) saw their stock prices stagnate or fall. Boeing and GE had large rises though (meteoric in case of GE).
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37. tremon+bb3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-05-29 19:18:48
>>Walter+M4
...which is why the market is supposed to have competition. Company strangles themselves with bureaucracy -> next company is ready to take over. But when a monopoly strangles itself with bureaucracy, there is no next company to take over and you get rent-seeking behaviour and unmotivated employees that just phone it in because they have nowhere else to go. End result: the public foots the bill for less quality at higher prices.
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38. spwa4+Yyp[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-08 07:32:00
>>toomuc+Vu
The problem is that the opposite is as destructive. Doing new things WILL cause accidents. And in the case of Boeing, of course it will result in planes failing.

And the "solution" to any level of this kind of criticism is really easy: do less, eventually do nothing at all anymore. But, in truth, that's even more destructive, in fact that that's happening is what this whole thread is about.

We need a balance. There needs to be some tolerance for risk, certainly at companies like Boeing.

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39. spwa4+Wzp[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-08 07:46:59
>>dsr_+Nl
But ALL of the FANGs pride themselves on predictably rising numbers. They all have a semi-believable story, and in fact only Amazon has a unique tactic (which is cheating taxes entirely by having zero profit, hence their revenue goes up predictably instead of profit. The others have steadily rising profit with slight variation in the rise of their revenue)

But all of them do it. Facebook/Meta, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Apple. Even the non-FANG fangs like Tesla, Twitter, ... and all have stories about faking it. Most are advertising and that's easy to fake on both sides (buy your own adertising, and of course fake engagement), Amazon has zero profit so they proudly declare they're faking it for the government (but, of course, they're not cheating you), Netflix has steadily rising subscriber numbers where everyone else has failed, even Apple's growth has switched to subscriber growth, the part of their business that would be the easiest to fake.

In fact this is quite common in the whole S&P 500, including outside of the US, with numbers not quite as dramatic as the FANGs, but still going up.

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