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1. xp84+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-01-13 23:03:00
The essay touches on something that I think explains that, though. Disputing an actual specific allegedly-woke idea requires one to confess their heresy specifically, so as the essay says, it's not smart to confess directly to holding a specific heretical opinion.

Suppose that a person feels that Black people aren't being helped to succeed in our society, and are actually being harmed, by the way they are being told they are always victims with very little agency, as Black author John McWhorter argues. He gets called all kinds of nasty things for speaking that opinion, and he's Black! On the other hand, it's harder to "cancel" or accuse someone of absolute racism (or race traitor-hood) if they say "I don't think the woke mindset is helping, and I think there are better ways to help Black communities."

So that's why imho the word "woke" is a popular tool among those who don't like the various components of it, which are much, much easier to enumerate than those on the Left incredulously pretend. It's basically just:

1. The idea that people can be harmed by hearing ideas they disagree with, and that society should punish those who spoke those ideas.

2. Ideologies about race and generational guilt which basically boil down to "the whole world would be much better off if all Europeans had mysteriously vanished 1500 years ago and we wish that had happened."

3. Ideologies that have to do with gender, which I dare not even elaborate on, because of how heretical all but one opinion on that subject is.

replies(3): >>PaulDa+hg >>PaulDa+Yi >>chimpr+Rj
2. PaulDa+hg[view] [source] 2025-01-14 00:34:37
>>xp84+(OP)
> ... and are actually being harmed, by the way they are being told they are always victims with very little agency

Well, first we could start by having a discussion of whether or not it is actually true that "they are being told they are always victims with very little agency".

Now, if that were in fact true, we could go on to talk about how we might reduce that harm, and one part of that might involve saying that less.

But then again, were that not true, then we could pretty much discard the person's objections and move on to something that is actually happening.

I read and respect McWhorter, but I don't think that (a) he's right about everything or that (b) your one line summary characterizes his position accurately.

I'll reply separately to your attempted summary.

3. PaulDa+Yi[view] [source] 2025-01-14 00:49:04
>>xp84+(OP)
1. No, this is not the point at all. The actual view that you're referring to is that sometimes people are in fact harmed by verbal behavior and cultural phenomena, that we should recognize that, and when possible and appropriate seek to mitigate it. That doesn't mean punishment or book-banning (ideas which come from those most often associated with being anti-woke) but rather a willingness to examine reality through the eyes of people other than ourselves and above all to be kind.

2. No, that is also not the point at all. The actual view is that there has been, at least within the world once controlled by various European powers since somewhere in the range of 1200-1500, a wilful ignorance and downplaying of the horrors created by the colonialism perpetrated by those European powers.

3. Since you don't elaborate, it's hard to respond to this. But I will note that the recognition that gender and sex are not the same thing goes back many decades, if not centuries; that gender roles and sexuality have not been even remotely close to fixed across the time and space in which human civilization has existed; that the response from people who declaim the "woke" approach is so often summarizable as "I don't like it and other people should lead more miserable lives because I think so".

replies(2): >>nradov+JW >>Energy+NX
4. chimpr+Rj[view] [source] 2025-01-14 00:54:02
>>xp84+(OP)
> Suppose that a person feels that Black people aren't being helped to succeed in our society, and are actually being harmed, by the way they are being told they are always victims

> The idea that people can be harmed by hearing ideas they disagree with

You seem to be arguing that Black people are harmed by being exposed to ideas about victimhood, and then ridiculing the idea that being exposed to ideas can be harmful.

replies(1): >>bpt3+1M
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5. bpt3+1M[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 04:39:28
>>chimpr+Rj
No, they're arguing that society should punish those who spoke those ideas, where "those ideas" is whatever terminally online leftists are whinging about at the moment (i.e. a bar that is way too low for the proposed repercussions).

But I think you already know that and went with the selective quote anyway.

replies(1): >>jorvi+NP
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6. jorvi+NP[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 05:15:38
>>bpt3+1M
> But I think you already know that and went with the selective quote anyway.

Whenever I see someone try to pull bad-faith arguing like that, I just immediately bail.

Another fan-favorite of that cohort is incessant demands of proof.

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7. nradov+JW[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 06:29:47
>>PaulDa+Yi
There also seems to be a willful ignorance of the horrors created by the Aztec, Qing, and Songhai powers (among others) before Europeans arrived in force. I won't attempt to defend or excuse the crimes against humanity committed by European colonial powers, but focusing on them seems particularly myopic. We can educate people about the history of that period but to what end? Assigning blame for the current state of affairs to dead people doesn't actually solve any problems today. The only way to move forward is to put that past behind us.
replies(2): >>3D4y0+201 >>PaulDa+WY1
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8. Energy+NX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 06:41:04
>>PaulDa+Yi
Realizing that men and women are different and a man putting on a dress doesn't make him a woman goes back much further across all cultures.
replies(2): >>sofixa+Ae1 >>PaulDa+oU1
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9. 3D4y0+201[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 07:06:03
>>nradov+JW
> The only way to move forward is to put that past behind us. I think a distinction should be made between revisiting history (in a bid to understand how we got where we are now), and assigning blame.

I'm not sure how we can move forward without some degree of empathy; "Yes, you got the short end of the stick, but how about if we try such and such to ameliorate the impact of the past on your present".

I don't think you are advocating sweeping the past under the rug, I'm just saying that telling a person who is still feeling the sting of a perceived slight (real or imagined) is unlikely to result in moving forward.

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10. sofixa+Ae1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 09:45:16
>>Energy+NX
> Realizing that men and women are different and a man putting on a dress doesn't make him a woman goes back much further across all cultures

Some cultures have known that things are not binary for a very long time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

replies(1): >>Energy+0M2
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11. PaulDa+oU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:05:50
>>Energy+NX
Realizing that the sex classifications (male, female, intersex etc) are only tangentially related to gender roles seems to me to be about the most basic concession to reality that one could make in these times.

What constitutes the gender role of "a man" or "a woman" is fluid, not well defined, and subject to change. What constitutes "femininity" and "masculinity" is also fluid, not well defined, and subject to change.

Even if sex was a binary (which it isn't, but it's not a terrible argument to say that it is close enough to one for many purposes), when it comes to gender we all exist in a multi-dimensional space with so many variations on so many themes. Insisting that gender is binary is so harmful, even to people who consider themselves as being at one or other end of that binary. It's fine that there are people who fully embody a particular Victorian-era notion of masculine and feminine (or any other one, really), but the vast majority of us are nowhere near that simple. Insisting that gender comes in only two forms, and has no fluidity to it hurts all of us.

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12. PaulDa+WY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:26:11
>>nradov+JW
Sure, but do you see one of the primary reasons why there is such ignorance? Because to acknowledge that there were (or are) great, powerful, complex, sophisticated, organized cultures in parts of the world before European colonization happened undercuts one of the central myths that European colonization has wanted to tell about itself - that it, and it alone, was responsible for bring all those attributes to the parts of the world it touched.

Our ignorance of the cultures (positive and negative) in parts of the world where colonization did not happen is motivated by something less pernicious - people are parochial, and European culture in particular took a fairly strong stance that despite knowledge of the civilizations along (e.g.) the silk road, they were of no particular significance since they didn't have (Jesus|Bach|Newton|Galileo|etc.)

You ask "to what end?" I would say the end has multiple components. One is that history rhymes and so if you want to understand the future better, understanding the past better will often help with that. Another is that cultures themselves carry the past forward for amazingly long periods - the English have still not really abandoned the Norman conquest of 1066 as a socio-structural signifier even though it was nearly 1000 years ago. The Hopi still have many stories of things that occured in their world 600-1200 years. If these historical stories are inaccurate, a culture is doing itself no favors carrying them forward. And similarly, a culture that carries such a story as a tale about injustice is not done any favors by being told "ah, fuhgedaboutit".

replies(1): >>corima+F13
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13. Energy+0M2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 18:16:44
>>sofixa+Ae1
That's orthogonal to my statement. They still recognize that male hijra are not women. Nobody in history has said "I would like a wife to start a family, I will go find a nice hijra", and if they did, they were quickly disabused of the viability of that plan.
replies(1): >>PaulDa+FO2
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14. PaulDa+FO2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 18:27:44
>>Energy+0M2
It's not orthogonal because you made no attempt to make it clear whether were you were talking about sex or gender, which are not the same.

Being "a wife to start a family" requires a person with female sex, and is typically associated with female gender. But that association is not required, and has not been so across all human cultures and all time.

replies(1): >>Energy+pv3
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15. corima+F13[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 19:20:28
>>PaulDa+WY1
>Because to acknowledge that there were (or are) great, powerful, complex, sophisticated, organized cultures in parts of the world before European colonization happened undercuts one of the central myths that European colonization has wanted to tell about itself - that it, and it alone, was responsible for bring all those attributes to the parts of the world it touched.

What? The Rennaisance that grew birth to the Modern West was an intentional attempt to revive and surpass the ideals of Old Rome and Greece. When they excavated the Pyramids, many in the West took to adopting parts of Egyptian Culture for legitimacy, the Washington Monument being one prime example. Imperial China was seen as stagnant, but they certainly were respected as highly civilized and organized. What special qualities they gave themselves were their flexibility, rationality and technological superiority, which is not entirely wrong in the battlefield.

This "central myth" you are saying Europeans told themselves sounds more like a fictional strawman to attack and is contradictory, especially in the context of OP's point towards the attitudes held by the people currently attacking Western ideals, not defending it. It's not really refuting the point either that the world pre-1945 was a brutal place, and EVERYBODY was trying to conquer and dominate each other, it was just the West was the strongest of them all and won at the end.

That's why if you solely focus on the West as opposed to understanding the general context of the world at the time and critiquing equally those other culture, it calls into question whether one really cares about these shared ideals of anti-imperialism or if it's just an excuse for nationalist grievances that they weren't on the dominating side. And you know, in Turkey, in China, in India, that kind of mindset very much is the case. It's not that imperialism was bad, it was only bad because it happened to them. For those they conquered, it was glorious event to be valorized.

replies(1): >>PaulDa+1R3
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16. Energy+pv3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 21:35:11
>>PaulDa+FO2
Men are adult human males. Women are adult human females. If you want to talk about the social roles that men and women occupy, you should use the appropriate words, which are not "men" and "women".
replies(1): >>PaulDa+RP3
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17. PaulDa+RP3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 23:38:26
>>Energy+pv3
What words would they be?

FWIW, I try to use "male/males" to refer to sex, and "man/men" to refer to gender, since AFAICT, there are no terms that clearly refer to gender.

replies(1): >>Energy+A64
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18. PaulDa+1R3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 23:48:46
>>corima+F13
The renaissance and colonialism have an interesting, complex relationship with each other. As do the veneration and fetishization of dead civilizations vs. conceptions about contemporaneous ones. So sure, elements of the renaissance may have venerated "Egyptian Culture", but there were very few signs of it having any respect for contemporary Egyptian culture.

The myth is "we bought civilization to places that didn't have it". And that is absolutely a lie. There is a second myth that is particularly applicable in the Americas, which is that Europeans discovered a land that God intended them to have dominion over (essentially ignoring or belittling the existing civilization that was here). Neither of these are fictional strawmen - they are real and documented positions found through the writings of European explorers and American settlers and leaders.

It remains puzzling to me why settler colonialism (the dominant, though not only form of European expansionism) was not common in either the pre-1492 Americas or in Asia. The cultures/civilizations there certainly were expansionary but rarely seemed to feel the need to replace existing populations with their own. Whatever the reasons, the results are wildly different.

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19. Energy+A64[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-15 02:09:40
>>PaulDa+RP3
"mascs" and "femmes" are ones that I have seen used.

"men" and "women" should not have their meaning diluted. They already have the meaning of "male" and "female".

replies(1): >>PaulDa+Ax5
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20. PaulDa+Ax5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-15 15:32:18
>>Energy+A64
We dilute, pervert, change, invert, transform and reshape the meaning of words all the time, throughout history and across languages. I don't see anything special about the words we use to describe sex and gender.
replies(1): >>Energy+F0u
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21. Energy+F0u[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-23 17:43:31
>>PaulDa+Ax5
We can change "war" to mean "peace", "freedom" to mean "slavery", "ignorance" to mean "strength", and "man" to mean "woman". We shouldn't, though. Some meanings are worth preserving, because they have deep legal implications.
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