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1. s1arti+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-26 18:36:31
That's one theory. Another Theory is that the state is simply piling on and further exploiting these people.

A third theory is that the state shouldnt be in the position of playing nanny or parent, influencing behavior. If it is illegal, prevent it from happening. If it is legal, it shouldn't it shouldnt interfere.

replies(2): >>pclmul+G4 >>autoex+Xo
2. pclmul+G4[view] [source] 2024-09-26 19:03:19
>>s1arti+(OP)
> A third theory is that the state shouldnt be in the position of playing nanny or parent, influencing behavior. If it is illegal, prevent it from happening. If it is legal, it shouldn't it shouldnt interfere.

This sort of black-and-white position basically means either a complete ban (presumably with a harsh penalty for people who participate in the activity) or no regulation at all. A ban will just get circumvented if you don't penalize people for getting around it, so you're going to have to penalize addicts for illegal gambling, not just the people who enable that gambling. If you want to take the other extreme, are laws that force people to put lung cancer warnings on cigarettes "playing nanny"?

In real life, we usually take middle ground positions, and that means doing things that influence behavior, whether they are taxes or restrictions on labeling.

replies(1): >>s1arti+k8
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3. s1arti+k8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:24:04
>>pclmul+G4
Yes, I do think government should be more black and white, and the government should stay in it's lane. I support regulation that empowers and informs individuals to make their own choices.

Labeling of side effects, calories, and similar topics fall into that category of empowering the citizen.

Sin taxes dont educate or empower, they simply punish and try to prevent individuals from acting on their own choices.

The two are very different.

replies(1): >>pclmul+mK
4. autoex+Xo[view] [source] 2024-09-26 20:50:11
>>s1arti+(OP)
> A third theory is that the state shouldnt be in the position of playing nanny or parent, influencing behavior. If it is illegal, prevent it from happening. If it is legal, it shouldn't it shouldnt interfere.

A lot of things are only able to be legal because they are regulated in some way. I absolutely want the state in the position of "playing nanny" when it comes to things like telling companies they can't dump a ton of toxic chemicals into the rivers or how much pollution they are able to spew into our air.

It's legal to sell tobacco, and it should be, but I'm very glad there are rules against selling cigarettes to children. It's legal to drink alcohol, but it's a very good thing when the state influences behavior like drunk driving.

Nobody wants arbitrary laws restricting private individuals for no reason, but communities should have the power to decide that some behaviors or actions are harmful to the group and are unacceptable. Communities have always done that in one way or another. We've just decided that rather than stick with mob justice we would put away the tar and feathers and allow the state, our public servants who are either elected by us or appointed by those we elect, to enforce the rules for us. I'm glad we did. I've already got a job and can't go around policing all day.

replies(1): >>s1arti+Wq
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5. s1arti+Wq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 21:00:39
>>autoex+Xo
I dont think stopping companies from polluting rivers is playing nanny. It is against the law, destroys others property, and the government should act.

Drunk driving is illegal too, for good reasons.

Im not against laws.

What I am against is the state taking things that are explicitly legal, and making your life hard and penalizing you if you do them.

The role of the government should be enforcing law. Enforcing social judgement and incentives on legal behavior should be left to non-governmental society.

Sin taxes are a classic example of this.

replies(1): >>autoex+8u
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6. autoex+8u[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 21:21:12
>>s1arti+Wq
I'll admit that sin taxes imposed on the general public aren't usually a very good idea. For example, I'd much rather see government subsidizing the costs of healthy foods rather than add a tax on sugar.

I can see taxes and tariffs imposed on corporations being useful to limit the amount of certain harmful goods or to help offset the costs of externalities caused by those products. I'd still rather see companies regulated and held accountable for what they do more directly in most cases.

replies(2): >>s1arti+dJ >>pclmul+Jx2
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7. s1arti+dJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 22:59:22
>>autoex+8u
I think that is most closer to my position.

In my mind, the government is a heavy hammer, backed by lethal force. As such, it should be used sparingly to prevent concrete damages, enforce laws, and enforce property rights.

If a person or company is causing people real harm, that should be actionable by the government. If they are poisoning someone or killing their land, that is well within the remit.

Inversely, the government should not be a tool for optimizing society, or increasing the subjective efficiency or morality.

Government is a powerful tool, but that doesnt mean it the right tool for everything. Restraint and respecting other people's autononomy is a difficult skill to lean when you have the power to simply force compliance and "know" you are right.

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8. pclmul+mK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 23:08:40
>>s1arti+k8
So do you believe that any behavior should be prohibited?

Do you think sales of raw milk, which have been known to cause listeria outbreaks when people drink from an unsafe batch, should simply force labels of "this milk may be unsafe" or do you think that should be prohibited?

Do you think rhino horn should be legal to sell with the label of "this likely came from poached animals"?

replies(3): >>s1arti+xN >>s1arti+6Q >>bigstr+Rk1
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9. s1arti+xN[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 23:37:00
>>pclmul+mK
Yes, lots of behavior should be prohibited. Specifically when they cause direct and indisputable harm to another person.

I think raw milk should be legal, and the labeling requirement should depend on the actual risk level, not just a vague possibility.

rhino horn is a tricky one. Poaching animals is a form of stealing, so it is clearly illegal. Off the cuff, I think selling recently harvested rhino horn should be legal but required to have evidence that it was not poached.

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10. s1arti+6Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 00:00:25
>>pclmul+mK
Inversely, Do you think the state should be able to criminalize selling or owning farmed Rhino horn?

Do you think think states should be able to ban the sale of meat or specific types of farmed meat?

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11. bigstr+Rk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 06:08:55
>>pclmul+mK
Raw milk should absolutely be allowed for sale if properly labeled. The risk is miniscule, and it should be up to individuals if they are ok with it or not. I myself grew up drinking raw milk every day, and nobody from my family got sick even once. It's absolutely ridiculous that it's completely banned in the US.
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12. pclmul+Jx2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 15:10:52
>>autoex+8u
Subsidizing the cost of health foods and adding a tax on sugar are exactly equivalent due to how monetary policy works.
replies(2): >>s1arti+RM2 >>autoex+jc3
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13. s1arti+RM2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 16:15:09
>>pclmul+Jx2
How are they roughly equivalent, let alone "exactly equivalent"? It seems to me that are vast differences any way you compare them.

Economically, there are major differences in who pays them, There are differences in impact/cost. There are also huge moral differences between subsidizing desired behavior, and penalizing undesirable behavior.

replies(1): >>pclmul+TD3
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14. autoex+jc3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 18:22:25
>>pclmul+Jx2
Subsidizing the cost of health foods would actually be a lot more expensive. In fact, ideally it'd include increasing the accessibility of healthy foods while a tax on sugar would be much easier to implement.

It'd result in more people eating better though (instead of just eating slightly less worse, or eating worse differently while still not getting enough healthy food) and so there'd also be savings in the cost of health care and improvements in productivity.

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15. pclmul+TD3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 21:22:34
>>s1arti+RM2
Subsidies increase the amount of money in circulation and taxes decrease it. The price of goods is set relative to the amount of money in circulation (this is what inflation does). Hence, exact equivalence of taxing sugar and subsidizing foods without sugar.
replies(1): >>s1arti+lH3
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16. s1arti+lH3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 21:47:13
>>pclmul+TD3
Seems like a very narrow definition. If I take $100 from your wallet, or give $100 to your neighbor, is that exactly the same to you?
replies(1): >>pclmul+tW3
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17. pclmul+tW3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 00:20:24
>>s1arti+lH3
No, the effect is amortized over everyone. If you elect to take $100 from half the country or give $100 to the other half it's pretty much exactly equivalent. We saw this experiment with COVID helicopter money causing inflation. You weren't seriously suggesting taxing or subsidizing only one person, were you?
replies(1): >>s1arti+aq4
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18. s1arti+aq4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 07:54:12
>>pclmul+tW3
taxes are generally levied on a small portion of people and subsidies normally go to even smaller portion.

Taxes and benefits are extremely unequal in their application.

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