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[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. notepa+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:27:51
I'm of the opinion that gambling as a whole should not be regulated.The only restriction should be on using other people's money instead of your own.

It makes no sense, it is the person's money and life, and it is theirs to ruin as they wish. We are not properties of the state. If a person cannot be allowed to do what they wish with their own money, because they might harm themselves or others as a result, then how can you trust them with driving a vehicle, flying a plane, operating weapons in the military, or even owning a personal weapon?

Every gun sold to a person is a gamble on whether they use it to cause harm on others (same with the things i listed above).

This same logic applies to regulation of drugs in general as well in my opinion. Regulating other peoples lives is not the purpose of the government, especially when they're not harming others or being a nuisance to the public.

replies(5): >>csomar+P >>vizzie+r1 >>BobaFl+02 >>phaedr+oe >>risho+Pt1
2. csomar+P[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:31:21
>>notepa+(OP)
> how can you trust them with driving a vehicle, flying a plane, operating weapons in the military, or even owning a personal weapon?

Comparing Oranges to Potatoes. People involved in gambling are not stupid. They are either 1. Not quite smart or mathematically smart, so they don't understand the odds or 2. Addicted to gambling in the same way someone is addicted to Tobacco. Of course, there is 3. Having a little fun with a little money; but this is not the audience that's making money for gaming.

replies(1): >>notepa+gr
3. vizzie+r1[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:34:33
>>notepa+(OP)
> vehicle, flying a plane, operating weapons in the military, or even owning a personal weapon?

3 of these require significant training or at least licensing and the last one is banned in the majority of western nations.

I'm with you that personal responsibility and freedom should be the norm, but active predators (Drug dealers, bookies, social media companies) should probably have limits put on what they're allowed to do.

replies(1): >>notepa+Br
4. BobaFl+02[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:37:07
>>notepa+(OP)
> how can you trust them with driving a vehicle, flying a plane, operating weapons in the military, or even owning a personal weapon?

These are all fairly strongly regulated. Did you choose bad examples on purpose?

replies(1): >>notepa+Nr
5. phaedr+oe[view] [source] 2024-09-26 17:55:02
>>notepa+(OP)
The thing is when people around me are "ruining their lives" it does affect me.

Crime goes up, bankruptcy goes up, corruption in sports goes up, etc.

I agree that people should be given freedoms, but we live in societies and people aren't independent, disconnected, autonomous units.

replies(1): >>notepa+Kq
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6. notepa+Kq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:07:23
>>phaedr+oe
Too bad, that still doesn't give you authority over other people, before they do something harmful to you. You can policy sports corruption and crime, regulate bankruptcy more,etc.. but you don't have the right to police people as a whole "just in case". I did not suggest allowing gambling to be used as an excuse to cause harm. You prevent crime by punishing it. You reduce bankruptcy by adding costs to it. (no comment on sports, since I don't think it is a net positive in society to begin with).
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7. notepa+gr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:10:37
>>csomar+P
> People involved in gambling are not stupid.

I agree.

> Addicted to gambling in the same way someone is addicted to Tobacco

Addicted people are still responsible for their actions. case in point: drunken driving. I agree with punishing gamblers that cause harm. but gambling itself should not be regulated. Tobacco, alcohol, hard drugs,etc.. they should all be allowed. But to balance that, punishment for crime needs to be severe when you're an addict.

replies(1): >>Alexan+HH1
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8. notepa+Br[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:12:58
>>vizzie+r1
I'm not against requiring training on math and statistics for gamblers.

For your last statement, I agree, "active predators" should be restricted or punished because their intent is to cause harm at the cost of others for profit. but if they're just selling the "drug", why should that be restricted? You can force them to inform their customers of the harm,but that's about it.

replies(1): >>Alexan+VH1
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9. notepa+Nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:13:52
>>BobaFl+02
No, but gamblers are allowed to do all those things. and I am not against requiring a license for gambling either, so long as the barrier for entry is reasonable.
replies(1): >>BobaFl+St
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10. BobaFl+St[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 19:25:32
>>notepa+Nr
Oh ok, I thought you were saying it shouldn't be regulated at all.

So like,what about making gambling work like credit cards: you get a license that allocates a monthly cap based on a combination of credit score and income. It starts very low and scales up to, I don't know, 10% of income?

replies(1): >>notepa+vt1
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11. notepa+vt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 03:34:14
>>BobaFl+St
I wouldn't like that either. Instead, maybe issue licenses to gamblers and like with a credit score, the fact that you have a gamblers license can affect things like getting loans, renting things, what you can buy,etc.. Let others who suffer an increased risk based on interacting with you refuse to do so, or incur additional penalties. Your monthly cap idea still nannies citizens.

We should be free to ruin ourselves if we so wish, but if we are set on a track like that, others should be made aware so they can react as they wish.

Same with drugs, if you get a drug use license, then employers can deny you jobs, you may not be allowed to drive, be trusted with loans,etc..

You get rights, but they come with responsibilities and restrictions.

12. risho+Pt1[view] [source] 2024-09-27 03:37:23
>>notepa+(OP)
drug addicts and people who lose all their money gambling are a nuisance to the public.
replies(1): >>notepa+gR1
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13. Alexan+HH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 06:21:37
>>notepa+gr
> I agree with punishing gamblers that cause harm.

The first people gamblers harm is their own family - long before any formal crime has been committed.

replies(1): >>notepa+0R1
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14. Alexan+VH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 06:23:38
>>notepa+Br
> "active predators" should be restricted or punished because their intent is to cause harm at the cost of others for profit.

This is the entire gambling industry! Do you think they don't know that their best customers are addicts who are blowing their kids' college fund?

replies(1): >>notepa+op2
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15. notepa+0R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 07:49:27
>>Alexan+HH1
That's not right, many gamblers don't even have a family. Are you saying people's lives should be regulated so that they don't spend their money in ways that their family wouldn't want it spent? I mean, last I checked, divorce, emancipation is still allowed.

How can we regulate what a person does with their hard earned wages from their labor and precious time and then still claim that person has liberties of any kind? If you think about it, this is the one and only fundamental liberty that is foundational to all other liberties.

Even slaves get food and shelter as well as some freedom of movement and expression. What they don't get is to be able to buy what they want and own it.

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16. notepa+gR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 07:53:00
>>risho+Pt1
punish the nuisance then, so long as actual harm is involved instead of simple visual displeasure. not the perceived cause. Stay out of people's lives. Society is also a nuisance to drug users and gamblers. The foundation of liberty is the protection of rights for even the most disagreeable individuals.

You don't deserve any rights or liberties if you can't accept the rights of the drug addicts,gamblers, homeless people and many more types of people out there.

It is a fundamental aspect of the human experience to self-determine one's fate.

replies(1): >>risho+783
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17. notepa+op2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 12:25:34
>>Alexan+VH1
You're probably right, so regulate and restrict the gambling industry, not individuals.
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18. risho+783[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 16:14:57
>>notepa+gR1
libertarians are so incredibly cringe its unbelievable. rights don't exist. they are not a law of nature. rights are a human invented concept. rights are both created by and enforced by government. generally speaking we do try to opt for giving people as much freedom as possible, that said if certain things have a high probability of negative externalties the government both can and does make those things illegal.
replies(1): >>notepa+1p3
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19. notepa+1p3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 17:37:24
>>risho+783
This isn't about libertarianism at all. it's about justice.

It is unfair and unjust to punish someone based on probabilities. A innocent person should not be treated like a criminal. A free person shouldn't be treated like a prisoner or a slave.

The government has no authority to punish citizens because they might commit a crime. Citizens are subject to the rule of law. But in exchange for compliance to the laws, we expect a fair and just treatment under that law. That is the contract.

replies(1): >>risho+MB3
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20. risho+MB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 18:48:43
>>notepa+1p3
>The government has no authority to punish citizens because they might commit a crime

you are either being hyperbolic, you are irrationally ideological, or you haven't thought about this enough.

surely you don't think that people should be allowed to have nuclear explosives in their house because until they have actually used them they haven't actually committed a crime yet. different people can have different ideas on where that line is but you must acknowledge that it exists.

replies(1): >>notepa+544
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21. notepa+544[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 22:00:27
>>risho+MB3
A nuke or a weapon of any kind except knives have one use, which is to harm people, they're built explicitly for that purpose, which is to harm others, so regulating their ownership and use is not a good analogy.

Maybe cars are sane analogy. You need to pass all kinds of testing and regulation to be allowed to drive a car or build and operate your own car, but only on public roads. You can in fact buy any kind of car you want or build one and operate it as you wish on your own property without any license. Even though cars can be used as dangerous and deadly weapons (terrorists use them on crowds all the time).

Yes, a line exists, that line is when you are engaging in privileged activity like driving, flying on a commercial plane or train, entering school property and such.

Maybe it might be productive if you used specific scenarios where you think allowing gambling would cause harm to others in and of itself, not as a side-effect (your nuke example is a direct effect).

replies(1): >>risho+Ud4
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22. risho+Ud4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 23:35:44
>>notepa+544
maybe it would make more sense if i framed my perspective differently. i think as a default laws should offer as much agency as possible to the individual. if someone wants to smoke cigarettes even though it literally does nothing but kill them, i'm fine with that. i think that there is a threshold that can be passed whereby *on average* it starts creating serious externalities on society. if the externalities get too high i'm fine with them stepping in and making regulations restricting and potentially banning them. there are plenty of weapons and chemicals and materials that fall into this area. i think that when it comes to stuff like drugs and gambling if you do a blanket ban on them it might actually make the problem worse because it creates a black market and demand will just go there. this will be make it impossible to regulate and impossible to even know what is happening in these markets. i would suspect that a better answer is to have specific types of gambling and a form of drugs that are legal that is hopefully less damaging that people with propensity for this sort of thing could be funneled into.
replies(1): >>notepa+VE4
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23. notepa+VE4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 06:10:44
>>risho+Ud4
I think you have a very good point, and I agree to the most part.

My overarching objection is that such laws are simply lazy. That laziness is infringing on people's liberties. Cigarettes are a good example, they shouldn't be outright banned as we both agree, but second-hand smoking should be banned as it affects others. I would even go as far as to say smokers should have higher premiums for the rest of their lives (I was one myself) when it comes to health insurance and such deliberate mishandling of your body might even cost you priority treatment for anything subsidized by the public. I am not against consequences at all.

I think like many legal issues, it boils down to what is "reasonable". If a "reasonable" person would find that possessing a nuke is an immediate danger to the public then of course possessing one doesn't amount to the government interfering in private lives. That is not the same as gambling and drug use, where the reason for restricting them is not an immediate concern of danger but an indirect and probabilistic anticipation of harm to others, which even if true, there are many other steps that can be taken to disincentivize or punish potential harmful interactions without outright restricting those things.

For example with drug use, it should only be allowed under medical supervision, when used outside of your own property. And as I stated earlier, gambling is bad financial decision making, so the fact that you are gambling and the details of your gambles should be made very public, so that others can steer clear of you as needed. It shouldn't be possible for a person to use a joint bank account to fund a gamble (to protect spouses and families), spouses should get notifications when their other half is gambling,etc.. That's hard and specific law making, instead of the lazy and unjust law making we have today.

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