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[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. thefau+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:24:43
Gambling is also ruining professional sports for me because I find the frequent gambling promos during the games depressing and disruptive.

Many years ago I worked at a company that had Ladbrokes in the UK as a customer. On my first visit to London, I noticed their storefronts and found them appalling. They were some of the sorriest, shabbiest public spaces I'd seen, clearly designed to extract resources from the least well off.

I don't really buy any of the arguments in favor of widespread legalization (and I include state lotteries in this). I could be ok with legalization for a few big events like the NCAA tournament because clearly there is some demand that must be met, but we should not be enabling gambling as a widespread daily habit.

Of course there will always be black market gambling and the state cannot protect its citizens from every evil, but nor should it actively enable them.

replies(8): >>datadr+L1 >>drcong+J2 >>cafard+vi >>EasyMa+rj >>akira2+sv1 >>dsclou+4w1 >>mrweas+1h2 >>throwa+Qv2
2. datadr+L1[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:31:46
>>thefau+(OP)
Walking through the UK really does not lead to a good view of sports betting. The store fronts do not look like places that a happy person would go to.
3. drcong+J2[view] [source] 2024-09-26 16:36:25
>>thefau+(OP)
The state of sports gambling in the UK is now such that Sky Sports (used to be a cable/satellite TV station catering purely to sports) is now basically just a series of gambling adverts with some sport thrown in to keep the punters hooked. They even launched a Sky Bet betting company which seems to have completely overtaken the TV channels - every sport is riddled with Sky Bet adverts and sponsorship. The biggest irony is that professional sportsmen (it's always men) keep getting bans for gambling on their own sport, and yet we somehow expect extremely rich young men in a "banter" culture to ignore the fact that every week they pull on a shirt with multiple gambling sponsors on it and then play in a stadium with endless gambling ads scrolling around the LED boards before being interviewed afterwards standing in front of a wall of gambling sponsors by a man with Sky Bet written on his microphone.
replies(3): >>alexdu+Xy1 >>aiaiai+uz1 >>FMecha+lE1
4. cafard+vi[view] [source] 2024-09-26 18:14:55
>>thefau+(OP)
Upvoted for the mention of state lotteries.
replies(2): >>EasyMa+Bj >>galley+zv1
5. EasyMa+rj[view] [source] 2024-09-26 18:20:50
>>thefau+(OP)
I used to support SG legalization quite a bit, but after seeing how quickly it can get people that I once thought were rock solid financially into a very bad financial situation quicker than I thought possible, I have no problem with heavily regulating bets sizes and interaction limits, if not an outright ban. Before it was slightly illegal and those people I guess avoided “bookies” as a result of being afraid of that whole scene. The most I ever gamble is when the lotteries get to ridiculously high amounts like $500 million and get a $2 ticket. However, people seem to get addicted to sports betting as fast as crack cocaine and it’s much wider spread than I thought, and contributes almost nothing to civilization other than the pocket books of the middle men. Is it because sports betting gives you quick feedback as oppose to lotteries making you wait or maybe the ease it is to drop your whole bank account as a bet? It seems like net societal negative in almost all ways other than a brief chance of thrill.
replies(1): >>Distra+Cw1
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6. EasyMa+Bj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-26 18:21:30
>>cafard+vi
I think getting wiped out financially by lotteries is still pretty rare in comparison to stuff like sports betting and drug use.
7. akira2+sv1[view] [source] 2024-09-27 03:49:15
>>thefau+(OP)
> because clearly there is some demand that must be met

There is demand it's not clear that it "must be met." The problem is not the betting or oddsmaking, the problem is, how do you handle settlements?

You're presenting the false dichotomy, that we should just allow gambling, because it's inevitable, and we can occasionally use the violence of the state and it's courts to run the settlement racket on behalf of short changed bookies.

> but we should not be enabling gambling

And we have no reason to. We should harshly penalize people who try to collect on gambling debt and they should have no access to the courts or to sheriff's over problems arising from it.

> cannot protect its citizens from every evil

That's why this is all so insidious because it's really only one you need to actually protect them from. Suddenly you'll find the industry self regulating customers with an obvious illness out at the front door. They'll get amazingly good at this.

replies(1): >>electr+Wx1
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8. galley+zv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 03:50:21
>>cafard+vi
State lotteries at least fund positive things, instead of just private profit. WA State as an example: https://www.walottery.com/PressRoom/Details.aspx?id=12129
replies(1): >>oceanp+My1
9. dsclou+4w1[view] [source] 2024-09-27 04:00:02
>>thefau+(OP)
Not sure about total death rates but I think gambling addiction has the highest suicide rate of any of the big addictions out there. It seems truly ruinous. I suppose if any random person can blow their savings on out of the money options theyre unable to gauge the risk of then they might as well be allowed to do the same with crazy parlay bets but seeing the whole landscape of sports betting evolve over the last handful of years has still been quite eerie to me.

My gut these days tells me its probably better for the humans in society if this stuff is left only to black markets because it seems like it destroys lives.

replies(1): >>ottero+DC1
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10. Distra+Cw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:07:44
>>EasyMa+rj
> Is it because sports betting gives you quick feedback as oppose to lotteries making you wait or maybe the ease it is to drop your whole bank account as a bet?

I suspect it's because unlike the lotto and games of chance, people can delude themselves into thinking they "know" the sport. It's not a gambling if they know better. It's also easy to externalize the blame for your loses "they would have won if not for <bad call, bad play, bad management, injury, weather, etc... Or combination thereof>"

You can dip your toe in betting on the obvious mismatched, where it's pretty clear who will win. This is priced into the bookmaking, so the payout is little, but this helps people convince themselves they do know the sport and chase longer odds with better payouts.

And then you get sunk cost fallacy, as they lose, they convince themselves they can win it back because they learned from before and their system will work this time.

replies(2): >>zo1+Xz1 >>mattm+BL2
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11. electr+Wx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:23:36
>>akira2+sv1
Removing access the the courts results in alternative forms of justice
replies(1): >>harry8+nA1
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12. oceanp+My1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:35:12
>>galley+zv1
My state makes lotteries illegal but I still support gambling. It’s one thing for someone to get ripped off in a private transaction that you can walk away from.

However the government is a monopoly, and has a monopoly on violence. Giving a mafia that can take your house away or put you behind bars their own casino is an incredibly bad idea.

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13. alexdu+Xy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:38:44
>>drcong+J2
It's the same in Australia. I've seen little kids who are into a particular sport parrot off the odds for the game. It's crazy.
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14. aiaiai+uz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:43:22
>>drcong+J2
Rule zero of bookmakers: No punter is allowed to have an edge. Rule one: see rule zero.
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15. zo1+Xz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:49:21
>>Distra+Cw1
I also don't think people realize how much money, effort, time, very smart (and well-funded) individuals are working on making those odds. They have access to decades worth of data, all the stats, and are entirely un-emotional or clinical about the data they are trawling through. Even if they miss something or get it wrong, it's usually minute and you as the gambler barely make any money out of it. Short of some black-swan like event or insider knowledge, you as a single individual would not be able to come up with a system that on average does better than the book makers.

At least (very loosely) with the lottery it's kinda random and your odds are "set" or rather your payout is not proportionate to your chance of winning. It's a happy surprise kind of thing as long as you don't overdo it.

replies(2): >>naming+tI1 >>Panzer+uL1
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16. harry8+nA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 04:54:58
>>electr+Wx1
Do that and your access to the courts is immediately restored as the defendant. CEO goes to jail, company's gambling license is revoked.
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17. ottero+DC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 05:18:31
>>dsclou+4w1
What about gambling suicide rates vs drug overdose or drug-related, non-violent death rates?
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18. FMecha+lE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 05:43:08
>>drcong+J2
>The biggest irony is that professional sportsmen (it's always men) keep getting bans for gambling on their own sport

People pointing this out often leads me to an impression that athletes should be allowed to bet on their own games. Problem is, that leads to match-fixing.

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19. naming+tI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 06:21:00
>>zo1+Xz1
It's not just the bookmakers either - there are syndicates, much like hedge funds, whose entire 9-5 job is trying to make money out of this stuff too, which forces the bookies into line and makes the prices on markets like Betfair fairly efficient.

Basically, as a guy on the street, you don't have a clue and you're up against MIT-tier brains trying to beat you.

It's interesting to me that more people don't realise this is intuitively obvious, though. No-one would look at the Olympics and think, oh yeah, I can run faster than Usain Bolt.

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20. Panzer+uL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 06:45:09
>>zo1+Xz1
You don't need to beat the bookies, you need to beat the odds. The bookies win either way. All they need to do is make sure bets on each side net out, minus their take.

If you have a reliable way to beat the odds (ie. Inefficient betting markets that get the odds of success wrong) you can theoretically make money - but its a similar scenario to daytrading, where you need to do extremely well because you have to overcome the negative drag from the booky take too.

21. mrweas+1h2[view] [source] 2024-09-27 11:22:17
>>thefau+(OP)
While we don't have Ladbrokes, we do have a number of different companies running gambling halls, with slot machines and sports gambling. Those should be outlawed, there is nothing good about them, they provide absolutely no value to society. I'm fine with people being able to place a small bet on their local football team and I'm fine with casinos where people make it an occasional event, similar to going to the movies or seeing a concert.

But these commercial gambling halls, it's not some well of person who decides to pop in Friday afternoon and maybe lose €20 on a crazy sports bet or the slot machines and then go home and have dinner with the family. It is the some of our weakest and loneliest people who line up, waiting for the place to open and then spend the next 10 hours there. There are places who will provide free food for their best "customers", to ensure that they don't leave. We're transferring money from social welfare to private companies, using addiction and loneliness.

As for sports, I don't think professional soccer would like a ban on sports gambling. The revenue and salaries it have generated are to high for them to walk away now. It is hurting the sport though, in the sense that the community and local fans have been pushed out long ago. A local football club had to leave the premier league a few years ago, as a result they could no longer charge insane prices for tickets at the stadium. The result: They had more fans come to every single game, they sold more season passes, because the fans still wanted to see the games, and now they could afford it. Sure, they made less money, but the connection to the fans and the city grow.

22. throwa+Qv2[view] [source] 2024-09-27 13:04:34
>>thefau+(OP)
This is a very thoughtful post. I have witnessed similar gambling establishments in Japan/JRA and Hong Kong/HJC. Both are equally unappealing to me for various reasons that you mentioned.

Your post made me think more about sports betting vs a lottery. To me, they really are different. With a lottery, you need to wait days to get the result (mostly). The chance for multiple quick dopamine hits is exceedingly low. (Scratch tickets and high speed lottos are another matter.). Now think about sports betting: So many simultaneous events or races, so the customer (user?) has many more chances for multiple quick dopamine hits. Maybe a potential framework to talk about gambling harm is opportunities for for multiple quick dopamine hits. If very low, then many tolerate it in their community, especially if a significant portion goes to social causes.

One thing I am absolutely sure about: Advertising for sports betting should be banned. I put it in the same class as cigarette ads as a child. Damn they looked so cool and fun. What a terrible message to spread!

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23. mattm+BL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 14:27:15
>>Distra+Cw1
That's a good point about being easy to externalize the blame. I'd also add on that likely a reason is the emotion of it. People are already emotional about sports and their team. With money on the line, that ramps up even more. The emotional aspect with highs and lows helps people crave more of that excitement.
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