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1. danpal+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-16 00:50:11
I really enjoyed the book "The Smartest Guys in the Room" about the Enron scandal for two reasons. The first and more obvious was that it was a deeper look into the systemic issues that led to the failures, which meant it was less "they did a fraud" and more about the way culture evolves at a company to the point that they did it.

Perhaps more importantly though, was my takeaway that it mostly wasn't fraud, it was truly innovative accounting that with hindsight was the wrong idea, but if the world worked out just a bit differently, could have led to them winning the market and taking the financial world in a new direction. It's not obvious to me that the fraud timeline is the only one or even the most likely one, we'll never know.

"History is written by the victors" is what comes to mind here. Or in another way, it's survivorship bias. I haven't read the Mr Beast document yet but I can imagine what's in it because my previous company had similar material (although likely far less controversial), and I'd bet many commenters here have similar culture documents, handbooks, mission statements, and so on, which when read out of context or through the lens of a future scandal could appear far more incriminating than otherwise.

We need to get better at distilling what it is in material like this that is a contributor to the success/failure/scandal, and what... just is... doesn't have an impact, or could have been another way. We need to be better at actually learning from these things in a nuanced way.

replies(4): >>MrVand+62 >>troad+78 >>YZF+59 >>hattma+nf
2. MrVand+62[view] [source] 2024-09-16 01:22:51
>>danpal+(OP)
> mostly wasn't fraud, it was truly innovative accounting that with hindsight was the wrong idea

When your "innovative accounting" makes you feel, at some point, that you should be shredding important documents, I think it mostly was actual fraud. You know, criminal behavior.

Let's call it like it is: a bunch of rich, extremely entitled people who decided they should, you know, be more rich by abusing their privilage and positions, and who helped nobody except themselves.

There's nothing admirable there, just another of those lessons that we ignore continually: cockroaches wear suits, and often expensive ones too.

replies(1): >>danpal+ue
3. troad+78[view] [source] 2024-09-16 02:40:36
>>danpal+(OP)
> Perhaps more importantly though, was my takeaway that it mostly wasn't fraud, it was truly innovative accounting that with hindsight was the wrong idea, but if the world worked out just a bit differently, could have led to them winning the market and taking the financial world in a new direction. It's not obvious to me that the fraud timeline is the only one or even the most likely one, we'll never know.

I don't think it's disputable that what Enron was doing, by the end, was fraud. 'The Smartest Guys in the Room' got a little too caught up in attacking mark-to-market, which itself isn't intrinsically fraudulent, but boy can it be misused for fraud, and the Enron guys absolutely and inarguably used M2M (among many other things) for fraud. Wilfully and knowingly.

Life is indeed shades of grey, but don't get so unmoored in your relativism that you end up giving cover to people doing genuinely bad things.

replies(1): >>danpal+fe
4. YZF+59[view] [source] 2024-09-16 02:51:38
>>danpal+(OP)
Nuance is hard and everyone just wants a quick hit. Especially in these modern days of zero attention span.

I read the blog post and I found it interesting. It's something I will file under "interesting" and over time with many other things informs how I think about the topic of building successful businesses and teams. It's something I've been thinking and doing (more on the teams side, less on the business) for a while. It's not something that you just read a blog about and then go do what that blog post says. This is true of technical topics as well. If life was as easy as just do what this other (successful) guy/company does or thinks (in whatever discipline or on whatever topic) then we'd all be immensely successful at everything. It's true that success and failures should feed into building our intuition of what works and what doesn't but intuition is built over a lot of experiences.

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5. danpal+fe[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 04:00:13
>>troad+78
My read of the book was that at the beginning Enron was attempting to use M2M for their "Gas Bank" concept, and at that point it wasn't obvious that it was wrong, and it wasn't fraud either. We now don't accept M2M accounting for what they were using it for, but they were seemingly the first (or first to get noticed?) to use it in the way they did and if things worked out differently maybe it would have stuck. In this way I think it's a bit of a case of "history is written by the victor".

By the end they were doing clear and obvious fraud, particularly in how they orchestrated the incoming funding for projects, and it had become clear that M2M was not working, but I don't think this was the only possible outcome.

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6. danpal+ue[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 04:03:11
>>MrVand+62
This is the point of the original comment, you have failed to engage in the actual material and have instead just concluded a binary position of "bad".

Read the book. I came in thinking "Enron bad" at the beginning, but left the opinion I stated above, that they did clearly commit fraud, but that it wasn't just a bunch of bad people deciding to do fraud one day, that it was a slow transformation from things that were obviously legal, to things that were obviously illegal, where it's actually surprisingly hard to draw a line separating the two.

Mark to market accounting for energy businesses doesn't work (in this way at least). We know that now because Enron tried it, legally, and it didn't work, somewhat spectacularly.

replies(1): >>MrVand+Zl
7. hattma+nf[view] [source] 2024-09-16 04:13:09
>>danpal+(OP)
That is a pretty interesting and accurate take. There is absolutely a ton of new innovative accounting going on still today. When / If these companies fail due to market conditions some of these accounting practices will most certainly be labeled as fraud. The takeaway from the Enron tale for the remaining firms wasn't we should stop finding new ways to increase revenue and decrease liabilities it was that we need to hire more teams to write white papers explaining why what we are doing isn't fraud.
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8. MrVand+Zl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 05:45:43
>>danpal+ue
> where it's actually surprisingly hard to draw a line separating the two.

It's really not that hard. If they sincerely thought they were doing something legal they would have sat back and waited to be vindicated, not spun up the The Power-Shredder 2400™ in a panic and started feeding it what, for the sake of argument, a court of law might want to call "evidence".

That's a line, crossed pretty definitively.

Cockroaches.

replies(1): >>danpal+Aq
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9. danpal+Aq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-16 06:43:01
>>MrVand+Zl
Again, you're failing to engage with the comments here in exactly the way that the comments were complaining about. Your insights are factually incorrect and your comments say more about you than they do about Enron.

The Enron scandal took place over nearly a 10 year period. The company was weird but likely not illegal for probably half that, most of even senior leadership appeared to be in the dark about the actual fraud (willingly or otherwise) until probably a few years left. They only started shredding evidence with weeks left. This is a 20k person company, no matter how you slice it that many people aren't committing a large conspiracy together and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

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