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[parent] [thread] 14 comments
1. renega+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-08-27 11:37:30
- some people cannot think abstractly about speech, because it is skewed because of actions of Elon Musk, or Zuckerberg, or other individuals

- it is certain that governments want to control the narrative, and it is not always done in our interests

- sometime actions are done to help us, but [disinformation enters the room]

- Everything at CEO level is "political"

- centralization of social media and forums allowed for this behavior. It would be impossible to "control" the Internet with federated Internet

- various powers fight over the Internet (governments, China, Russia, corporations, billionaires etc.). This is why it difficult to tell what is the truth, everyone tries to shift our perception

- YouTube removed thumbs down not to protect small creators. Moderation on social media is also not to protect ordinary people, but to retain clean image, or to keep investors happy

- sometimes when social media removes post is censorship. Sometimes it is not, but both scenarios occur

- some people that complain about free speech might be influenced by foreign powers

- some people that say moderation is required want just more control over social media for their own benefit, agenda

- I do not know if there is a clean, ethical way to "run the social media"

replies(5): >>throw3+H >>Secret+HF >>Rebuff+VI >>Dieder+eS >>seydor+nY
2. throw3+H[view] [source] 2024-08-27 11:44:39
>>renega+(OP)
A quick reminder of how democracy works:

people's choice -> government -> media -> narrative -> people's choice

replies(2): >>JumpCr+Q7 >>Infini+T8
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3. JumpCr+Q7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 12:44:24
>>throw3+H
> people's choice -> government -> media -> narrative -> people's choice

In this toy model, Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch have zero influence over either the media or government?

replies(1): >>throw3+ew
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4. Infini+T8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 12:53:27
>>throw3+H
I disagree with the assertion that the relation is cyclical. In reality, all of these systems are highly interdependent. I'd model it as a weighted complete digraph.

And certain subsets of these various nodes have a greater outsized influence than their peers. For example, the intelligentsia within the people are usually far more impactful than say Joe Blow from Appalachia.

replies(1): >>binary+zi
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5. binary+zi[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 13:59:13
>>Infini+T8
I’d say mass media, especially in entertainment and news (but I repeat myself), is far more influential than intellectuals, except inasmuch as they are influenced by them. But let’s be real, Noam Chomsky doesn’t have a ton of clout in Hollywood. If anything, it’s more about money than about the intelligentsia. And if you’re talking about social-media influencers, please revisit my first point.
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6. throw3+ew[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 15:11:51
>>JumpCr+Q7
No, of course you're right, the "toy model" is exaggerated. I think it was more true in some countries than others and several decades ago, when there was no internet and the media were dominated by a few players (including the government itself, in many countries) all very much established.

Let's say that I suspect that democracy is a system that assumes public opinion to be directed so that it doesn't stray too much from a narrow range of possibilities. This can be done just by manipulating the Overton window.

7. Secret+HF[view] [source] 2024-08-27 16:04:38
>>renega+(OP)
> I do not know if there is a clean, ethical way to "run the social media"

Darn, I guess we will have to shut down social media since it cannot be run ethically. A tough loss for the world..

replies(2): >>datavi+YA1 >>3np+uG1
8. Rebuff+VI[view] [source] 2024-08-27 16:19:56
>>renega+(OP)
> - I do not know if there is a clean, ethical way to "run the social media"

My hand-wavy proposal:

1. there needs to be something akin to a constitution where all players involved (users of social media, social media companies) can express some shared set of values. For example kids shouldn't get depressed, data should be private, widely spread information should be reasonably accurate.

2. There needs to be a few institutions with enough power and checks and balances to be able to steer the system towards these values.

replies(1): >>93po+iQ
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9. 93po+iQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 16:48:48
>>Rebuff+VI
> For example kids shouldn't get depressed

This will be hand-waved away as being caused by other influences

> data should be private

Sure, it's private: we know literally everything about you down to when you use the toilet, and so do all of our data brokers and your government. But it's tied to a token, and you'd have to do a SQL join to attach that token to your name, and we put up a flyer in the break room telling people not to do that SQL join.

> widely spread information should be reasonably accurate.

There are so, so many opportunities to frame things in extremely misleading ways to drive a certain narrative and the entire social media and corporate news establishment does this. And when they get caught making stuff up, just call it a mistake and run a retraction in fine print that no one sees

10. Dieder+eS[view] [source] 2024-08-27 16:56:16
>>renega+(OP)
> - I do not know if there is a clean, ethical way to "run the social media"

It's a very difficult problem, no doubt.

Do you think Hacker News is 'social media'? If so, is it being run in a 'clean, ethical way'?

replies(1): >>renega+eb1
11. seydor+nY[view] [source] 2024-08-27 17:22:03
>>renega+(OP)
> I do not know if there is a clean, ethical way to "run the social media"

... or any media. The messenger cannot not shape the message even if he tried. If he becomes a mere conduit, someone else will shape the message. People are (trained to be) emotionally-driven and thus their biases can be shaped

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12. renega+eb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 18:25:05
>>Dieder+eS
Yes, I thought about it. Yes, I think it is, but it can change. I think it is due to rules and users here.

If this became place for every uncle and aunt it would not be the same :-)

replies(1): >>stcroi+kZ3
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13. datavi+YA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 20:26:59
>>Secret+HF
Ethically? Your ethics or mine?
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14. 3np+uG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-27 20:56:07
>>Secret+HF
Or migrate towards a more decentralised and permissionless model where no single entity is "running the show".
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15. stcroi+kZ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-28 17:19:59
>>renega+eb1
Without access to the content which is suppressed, how can you form an opinion on whether that suppression is ethical?
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