zlacker

[parent] [thread] 34 comments
1. s1mon+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-06-28 21:55:22
I can't wait to see what JWZ has to say about this.
replies(3): >>Waterl+Z >>Nelson+14 >>deaddo+AY1
2. Waterl+Z[view] [source] 2024-06-28 22:02:34
>>s1mon+(OP)
Who/what is JWZ?
replies(2): >>sib+p1 >>TMWNN+E9
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3. sib+p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:04:49
>>Waterl+Z
Jamie Zawinski

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski

replies(2): >>hoten+u2 >>r3troh+Y2
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4. hoten+u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:10:52
>>sib+p1
TIL he owns and operates DNA Lounge. Thanks for the late night fun and pizza, jwz.
replies(1): >>worsts+Q4
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5. r3troh+Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:15:28
>>sib+p1
I love that this wikipedia article includes a "Principles" section.

Is this normal for wiki pages on people?

6. Nelson+14[view] [source] 2024-06-28 22:22:14
>>s1mon+(OP)
That was my first thought.

A few days ago JWZ had a great take on where Mozilla is today: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2024/06/mozillas-original-sin/

replies(3): >>matthe+x5 >>hinkle+tg >>Kwpols+NJ
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7. worsts+Q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:27:55
>>hoten+u2
I suspect he made the decision to buy DNA after this:

http://home.mcom.com/mozilla.org/1998-03-25/party/

That party was a huge milestone in retrospect. It was the day FOSS went mainstream. Shortly thereafter, the dot-com boom ended and the 90s tech parameters got upended and scrambled.

replies(2): >>davidw+j6 >>netsha+P7
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8. matthe+x5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:33:29
>>Nelson+14
Any link to there from here will only get you JWZ's take on HN.
replies(4): >>lizkno+O6 >>asveik+Tw >>yborg+oG >>tom_+Kg1
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9. davidw+j6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:39:07
>>worsts+Q4
I went to that! Heady times.
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10. lizkno+O6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:42:01
>>matthe+x5
That's kind of hilarious. I guess he's using the HTTP "referer" tag
replies(1): >>neilv+He
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11. netsha+P7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 22:49:55
>>worsts+Q4
His blogs (LiveJournal, and later on, his own WordPress instance) and website has content going all the way back to 1993. I remember finding it as a teenager and reading all the stories and being enchanted by them.

At some point he did write why he bought the club, he was moaning about the state of night life in SF, and a friend said something like "Why don't you do something about it?"... so he did.

Edit: found it: https://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/1998-1999.html

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12. TMWNN+E9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 23:05:53
>>Waterl+Z
[flagged]
replies(4): >>fragme+0c >>neilv+Qf >>wmf+Fl >>dang+hm
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13. fragme+0c[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 23:27:07
>>TMWNN+E9
what a terrible take. no wonder referrals to his site from this one get the treatment it does.
replies(1): >>TMWNN+Fc
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14. TMWNN+Fc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 23:32:01
>>fragme+0c
This is the first time I have ever discussed jwz here. I have no particular brief for, or against, whatever HN's "consensus" on Zawinski is. What I said is based on my reading his blog for more than a decade.
replies(1): >>justin+yj
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15. neilv+He[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 23:47:48
>>lizkno+O6
There are a bunch of settings in Firefox that affect this (if you don't mind occasionally breaking a Web site in a way no one will bother to diagnose): https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Referrer
replies(2): >>hinkle+Ag >>lizkno+qm
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16. neilv+Qf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-28 23:58:34
>>TMWNN+E9
JWZ is a skilled and noteworthy hacker, in the sense of HN.

IIRC, he decided a long time ago that he'd had enough of crazy startup life, and bought a nightclub, and somehow kept a nightclub going all that time.

replies(1): >>hinkle+Xg
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17. hinkle+tg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 00:05:11
>>Nelson+14
I don’t think the dumbest thing Mozilla did was take money from Google.

It was spending the fucking money.

Foundations like some cancer groups and the arts have an endowment. Each year they build up their war chest by seeking new funding, but a lot of the money they spend each year is the interest payments on their giant piles of cash. Mozilla could have run in perpetuity on the money Google gave them, but instead they decided to branch out into boondoggles and dipping their hands into the cookie jar.

replies(1): >>pavon+Wo
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18. hinkle+Ag[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 00:06:18
>>neilv+He
Just copy the url and paste it into a new tab.
replies(1): >>neilv+sj
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19. hinkle+Xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 00:09:51
>>neilv+Qf
People talk the same shit about Woz and Paul Allen too.

I could have gotten in on the third big round of hiring at Amazon, but I told my friend I’d rather work until retirement than get rich writing Perl code. People are allowed to have standards, and those standards are allowed to keep you from taking money you don’t feel good about.

If it wasn’t then we would all be sex workers. Most pay for the least work.

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20. neilv+sj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 00:37:18
>>hinkle+Ag
That works for viewing a particular page.

Why people might want to adjust the `Referer` behavior of the browser is that it leaks more information than you might think.

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21. justin+yj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 00:37:57
>>TMWNN+Fc
You believe he’s “eternally bitter” and “mentally ill” but you’ve been reading his blog for over a decade.
replies(1): >>TMWNN+on
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22. wmf+Fl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 01:00:55
>>TMWNN+E9
As one of the early Netscape employees he should have made pretty good money. He didn't make founder money because he wasn't a founder.

As for his personality, I get the impression he was always like that.

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23. dang+hm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 01:10:06
>>TMWNN+E9
Please don't cross into personal attack on HN, regardless of who the person is.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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24. lizkno+qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 01:11:38
>>neilv+He
They spelled it "correctly" there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_referer

Etymology

The misspelling of referrer was introduced in the original proposal by computer scientist Phillip Hallam-Baker to incorporate the "Referer" header field into the HTTP specification.[7][8] The misspelling was set in stone by the time (May 1996) of its incorporation into the Request for Comments standards document RFC 1945[9] (which 'reflects common usage of the protocol referred to as "HTTP/1.0"' at that time); document co-author Roy Fielding remarked in March 1995 that "neither one (referer or referrer) is understood by" the standard Unix spell checker of the period.[10] "Referer" has since become a widely used spelling in the industry when discussing HTTP referrers; usage of the misspelling is not universal, though, as the correct spelling "referrer" is used in some web specifications such as the Referrer-Policy HTTP header or the Document Object Model.[3]

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25. TMWNN+on[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 01:20:24
>>justin+yj
It's partially because of inertia, because I put it into my RSS reader a long time ago. It's partially because there are interesting posts every now and then, such as the one about him repurposing his old Lisp Machine terminal, or about XScreeenSaver. And yes, it's partially because rubbernecking while passing by a colossal trainwreck is always entertaining.
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26. pavon+Wo[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 01:40:33
>>hinkle+tg
The Google search deal started at around $50 million a year and has grown to a bit over $500 million a year. Let's estimate $5 billion total. It is typical to take 5% out of an endowment each year today, which means they would be have an income of $250 million a year if they had invested the money instead of spending it. Not bad!

On the other hand, the Google money accounted for around 85% of their income over the years, so if they hadn't been spending it they would have been operating on around 20% of the income for many years while the endowment grew, and likely would not have been able to keep up with competing browsers.

Also, for as much crap as she gets, Mitchell Baker invested over 20% of the Google money Mozilla received during her tenure, far more than was invested by prior CEOs. And before anyone brings it up, all that "woke activist" spending comes from donations, not Google money, which the IRS prohibits them from spending on browser development.

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27. asveik+Tw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 03:40:02
>>matthe+x5
I think his bitterness and open hostility are not well received on HN and simar places, but I find it absolutely refreshing. He's often right too.
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28. yborg+oG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 06:38:39
>>matthe+x5
His blog is linked to his Mastodon account: @jwz@mastodon.social
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29. Kwpols+NJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 07:34:19
>>Nelson+14
It's a very butthurt take about Mozilla agreeing to DRM in browsers. I prefer to watch Netflix or other streaming services in my browser, using its native features, not Flash, not Silverlight, not some native app not available for Linux.
replies(1): >>shiomi+Le1
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30. shiomi+Le1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 13:41:03
>>Kwpols+NJ
Surely you don't think DRM is necessary for streaming services to work...

My reading is that jwz thinks there was a possible future where DRM is dropped because it's as useless & impractical to enforce as cryptography export restrictions had been. Mozilla could have contributed to this future by not implementing DRM, but instead supported the outcome we got: DRM is ubiquitous, browsers that don't support it are disadvantaged significantly, and an anti-DRM streaming service (similar to GOG) no longer has any real advantage over DRM-enabled services.

It is possible that no DRM in Mozilla would have resulted in the same outcome we arrived at - Mozilla gave in, so we'll never know. But what does Mozilla even exist for if it's unwilling to stick to its principles?

replies(2): >>Kwpols+9x1 >>deaddo+7Z1
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31. tom_+Kg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 13:52:35
>>matthe+x5
Clicking that specific link does work - at least, at time of writing!
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32. Kwpols+9x1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 16:14:02
>>shiomi+Le1
DRM is necessary for streaming services which want to carry movies made by the big studios. They love their DRM.

If Mozilla refused to implement DRM in Firefox, Netflix would have just said “you need Silverlight, Chrome, or the native Netflix app to watch movies”, plain and simple.

replies(1): >>rchaud+qG1
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33. rchaud+qG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 17:29:32
>>Kwpols+9x1
...and there would be nothing wrong with that. As late as 2011, Silverlight was needed to stream Netflix on Chrome.

It's not like FF is a major browser that needs DRM to compete against Edge/Chrome. Its market share is in the single digits regardless.

34. deaddo+AY1[view] [source] 2024-06-29 20:53:58
>>s1mon+(OP)
Despite JWZ's animosity towards HN, his contributions towards open source and his influence on modern web browsers can't be overstated. In a thread about the history of Mozilla, it's worth reviewing his documentary on the open sourcing of Netscape, Code Rush:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_Rush

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35. deaddo+7Z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-29 20:59:00
>>shiomi+Le1
> It is possible that no DRM in Mozilla would have resulted in the same outcome we arrived at - Mozilla gave in, so we'll never know. But what does Mozilla even exist for if it's unwilling to stick to its principles?

If DRM weren't added to Mozilla and Firefox, then they would have continued to languish in marketshare on Windows/Mac and only would have hurt open source users on Linux/FreeBSD/etc.

The long-term gains of Firefox gaining marketshare (shaking up the IE monopoly and allowing web technologies to break stagnation) were worth the short term loss of "principals" on DRM. At least, IMO.

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