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1. massin+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-06-07 15:00:14
From the publication: “The speculation that the hand gesture herein presented is a freemasonry’s conveyed code is fascinating, but it is hard to accept.”

This sentence concluded a very short paragraph that apparently aimed to explore whether the hand sign could have a Masonic meaning. But instead of giving any explanation for their conclusion, the authors merely postulate the above without any given reasoning. I’m surprised to find this in what appears to aim to be a scientific analysis. Even more so would it surprise me if any conscious reader found this conclusion satisfactory.

Any thoughts?

replies(5): >>runjak+J >>bgoate+11 >>panarc+C6 >>anigbr+031 >>margin+zl1
2. runjak+J[view] [source] 2024-06-07 15:05:30
>>massin+(OP)
32° Freemason here. The images and descriptions do not match any masonic hand positions I am aware of.

However, there were numerous other fraternities and secret societies during that era, although they were typically gender-specific. Seeing both men and women using the same hand signals suggests these were likely common societal practices of the time. And since, presumably the hand positions are secret, they're not going to be immortalized in a painting.

replies(5): >>fidotr+T4 >>flir+45 >>kjkjad+2d >>tempor+uR >>colive+wq1
3. bgoate+11[view] [source] 2024-06-07 15:07:38
>>massin+(OP)
Having been involved in peer reviewed publishing before, I wonder if this was an afterthought prompted by a peer reviewer's comments on the paper. Perhaps they quickly added this point just to get it to pass review. Sloppy, if so, but I've seen similar (though not as blatant) things happen.
replies(2): >>crdros+96 >>karate+vj
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4. fidotr+T4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:36:22
>>runjak+J
> 32° Freemason here. The images and descriptions do not match any masonic hand positions I am aware of.

Would you actually be able to say it if they were?

replies(4): >>flir+p5 >>runjak+i6 >>NoMore+ud >>rubyfa+ef
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5. flir+45[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:37:12
>>runjak+J
> presumably the hand positions are secret, they're not going to be immortalized in a painting.

I wouldn't bet on it. Performative secrecy is very common in esotericism.

replies(1): >>runjak+q6
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6. flir+p5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:39:25
>>fidotr+T4
The other guard always lies.
replies(1): >>runjak+ho
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7. crdros+96[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:44:15
>>bgoate+11
I mean the whole paper is sloppy here. They kind of are writing to a biomedical journal and then say "well, it's NOT biomedical..." as kind of a little brush-off? And then they go through a couple explanations they have heard and dismiss them without really going through the evidence. (I especially liked the sloppiness of self-contradiction, in one section they're like "well there are no Hebrew letters that work for this" which is wrong, you could make decent arguments for both shin and tsadeh -- but then almost immediately after they're like "well this could be an M or W, W can symbolically be the Hebrew letter Vav...")

And after cursorily dismissing them they just say "therefore, it's an aesthetic meme. This is just what perfect hands look like, sorry."

A hypothesis that was not considered, for example: 'We asked people at school to imagine that they were going to be sitting still for the next three hours on a stool, and to sit on it in a way that was perfectly relaxed. We then prompted them "remember, in old times you'd have had to sit here for three hours, really relax." Finally, we then picked up their left wrist, turned it, and placed it on their chests saying "great, now can you just hold this hand here," and took a photograph. In 30% of these photographs we also see, even without syndactyly, that the two fingers get forced together just by the process of having your wrist twisted by an artist and then the fingers having to conform to the contours of the chest.'

I don't know what that percentage is, but I'd be surprised if it were 0%, right?

replies(1): >>burnis+kp
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8. runjak+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:45:08
>>fidotr+T4
I would just not comment, in that case.
replies(1): >>nick23+5e
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9. runjak+q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 15:46:00
>>flir+45
Touche. You are correct. In fact, a number of paintings of esoteric figures now come to mind where their hands are in a particular configuration.
10. panarc+C6[view] [source] 2024-06-07 15:47:15
>>massin+(OP)
This reads like it belongs in an episode of The Curse of Oak Island not an article.
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11. kjkjad+2d[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 16:26:20
>>runjak+J
Sometimes with these sorts of organizations their deepest secrets are the meaning of their public symbology.
replies(2): >>Timon3+Pd >>dpig_+Lf1
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12. NoMore+ud[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 16:28:12
>>fidotr+T4
Probably not, the Freemason Police patrol this internet web site daily, and he'd disappear in the middle of the night, never to be heard from again. Be sure to follow up on his comment history a month from now, to see whether he's said anything since.
replies(1): >>labste+Ag1
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13. Timon3+Pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 16:30:29
>>kjkjad+2d
Do you have any examples you could share?
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14. nick23+5e[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 16:31:36
>>runjak+i6
Maybe that knowledge is unlocked when hitting 33°.
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15. rubyfa+ef[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 16:38:01
>>fidotr+T4
Most of the secrets and symbols are available in publications and online for a very long time.
replies(1): >>runjak+2x
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16. karate+vj[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 17:01:51
>>bgoate+11
There were enough basic grammatical errors in that article—not to mention a general lack of clarity and specificity—that I initially wondered whether it was a preprint, or maybe somebody's blog. But no.
replies(1): >>standa+de1
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17. runjak+ho[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 17:32:56
>>flir+p5
Link to the logic puzzle that flir is referring to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_and_Knaves

replies(1): >>nosmok+Y51
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18. burnis+kp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 17:39:22
>>crdros+96
The genius of your proposition is that you wouldn't have to be surprised, you'd just know
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19. runjak+2x[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 18:22:00
>>rubyfa+ef
There's a surprising amount that aren't.

And even then:

1. Every Freemason knows what's on the Internet. Identifications have evolved.

2. The leaks lack... important contexts... about what they are.

replies(2): >>endofr+6y >>9991+XB1
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20. endofr+6y[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 18:29:02
>>runjak+2x
But what are they actually used for? The only things i heard about freemasonry were from conspiracy theorists. But i never really found out, what they actually do. And the secret handshakes are performed with strangers to tell each other secretly they're unknown brothers?
replies(2): >>tomcam+jp1 >>toast0+CA1
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21. tempor+uR[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 20:32:10
>>runjak+J
Sorry to break the news to you Jake but there are two orders. Those of "that era" are the actual power breakers, you guys are the peculiar but innocent window dressing.

> And since, ..

No, the meaning is the secret :) Oh dear.

22. anigbr+031[view] [source] 2024-06-07 21:56:20
>>massin+(OP)
I noticed that too. Eventually they drew the conclusion that people just copied each other to look cool. I have no idea whether there's more to the 'hidden meanings' conjectures or not, but if you're going to dig into a topic, dig in properly. Waste of reading time in my view.
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23. nosmok+Y51[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 22:22:36
>>runjak+ho
Ask what would the other do and do the opposite.
replies(1): >>m463+pc1
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24. m463+pc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 23:33:33
>>nosmok+Y51
I wonder if you could do that with tristate logic somehow. maybe with more guards or other variables.
replies(1): >>flir+tF1
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25. standa+de1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-07 23:51:55
>>karate+vj
"According to this hypothesis, the gesture was a secret sign used to recognize crypto-jews each other"

"According to this hypothesis, the gesture was a secret sign used to recognize masonic followers each other"

I have never heard this verbiage before... Did an AI write this? Or, can someone explain to me how "used to recognize followers each other" is grammatically sound?

replies(2): >>mkl+5y1 >>karate+vk2
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26. dpig_+Lf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 00:07:37
>>kjkjad+2d
Source: Nicolas Cage
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27. labste+Ag1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 00:19:13
>>NoMore+ud
The last time the government found out about the Masonic Police, the leader mysteriously died right before trial and the other charges were swept under the rug. I definitely wouldn’t mess with those guys.

https://www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-fraternal-police-2...

28. margin+zl1[view] [source] 2024-06-08 01:18:38
>>massin+(OP)
Could also be from some defunct offshoot off the freemasons or some other adjacent secret society. The rosicrucians are perhaps most well known, but secret hermetic societies were fairly in-fashion during the renaissance. Given the secrecy involved, it's probably very hard to know what is and is not (and has been) a significant gesture.

I'd also personally not be surprised if hermetic symbolism cropped up around the Medici-adjacent artists in particular, given the Medicis' proximity to Pico della Mirandola who was fairly important in bringing together this new mix of christian, jewish, gnostic and neoplatonist mysticism.

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29. tomcam+jp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 02:18:11
>>endofr+6y
If he told you that, he’d have to… initiate you
replies(1): >>runjak+vu1
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30. colive+wq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 02:34:51
>>runjak+J
What is secret is the meaning, not the gesture itself.
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31. runjak+vu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 03:42:24
>>tomcam+jp1
I hope he's comfortable with goats.
replies(1): >>motoha+e22
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32. mkl+5y1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 04:37:31
>>standa+de1
It's not grammatical. Reading the article parts of it seemed poorly machine-translated to me (and the whole thing seemed mostly a sequence of straw-men).
replies(1): >>b112+BJ1
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33. toast0+CA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 05:28:20
>>endofr+6y
You gotta do the gestures to get the keys to the shriner cars.

Source: my grampa was a mason, but didn't do any brickwork, and told me nothing.

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34. 9991+XB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 05:48:48
>>runjak+2x
Instead of relying on secrets that can be leaked, you should be using asymmetric cryptography.
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35. flir+tF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 06:48:59
>>m463+pc1
Solve for the general case.

Maybe you need num_guards-1 questions?

I doubt you could solve for 50 guards with 1 question.

replies(1): >>judahm+FI1
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36. judahm+FI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 07:40:25
>>flir+tF1
If you're allowed to create a hypothetical question that translates a hierarchy of guards into Boolean logic, then it doesn't matter how many guards there are.
replies(1): >>flir+JO1
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37. b112+BJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 07:53:02
>>mkl+5y1
And yet...

I recall when young, people were commenting on how most media came from centralized locations. That with newspapers, and then radio, and now TV, pronunciation was moving towards being less regionalized, diverse, yet also that the choice of words to use, the synonyms to use, was changing.

I also recall the same being said for a variety of things, such as spell checkers, and grammar checkers used in wordprocessors. Some grammar was "OK", but other forms were being pushed by (most especially) earlier wordprocessors, with grammatically valid text being marked with that wavy underline.

Now we have AI.

My point?

Kids are going to be raised in a world with AI. If it spends a decade or more spewing blather such as this, an entire slew of people will grow up, from 10 to 20 years old, 15 to 25 years old, learning to cobble together sentences in this sort of way.

Not only will they read it, but "helpful" assistants will change their normal prose, into this gibberish.

So I'm sorry mkl, it sort of will be grammatical. And no, I'm not happy about it.

replies(1): >>Hnrobe+802
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38. flir+JO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 09:19:45
>>judahm+FI1
What are you thinking? I was wondering about dividing them into sets.
replies(1): >>saghm+xo2
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39. Hnrobe+802[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 12:18:35
>>b112+BJ1
Indeed. And now imagine an opinionated government controls the AI which helps formulate not only articles, blogs, etc, but even the predictive text software that facilitates writing a language very poorly suited to writing on a phone. And then imagine how much harder it will be to overthrow that government when even your own speech is subtly nudged to support the will of Big Brother. And there you have the fate of the Chinese people.
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40. motoha+e22[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 12:45:04
>>runjak+vu1
we're not rude, we were just taught to be caustic.
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41. karate+vk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 15:47:20
>>standa+de1
> Did an AI write this?

I think you know an AI didn't generate the sentence because it's ungrammatical.

The publication in question (Acta Biomed) is oriented around "mainly national and international scientific activities from Mediterranean and Middle Eastern countries", so there's a reasonable chance none of the the authors speak English as a first language. This in no way excuses bad editing—the journal publishes in English, after all.

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42. saghm+xo2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-08 16:18:15
>>flir+JO1
"What would each of the other 49 guards would say the 49 guards other than them would do?" It would be a pain to do the deduction from all of that info, but it seems like it would be enough enough. Maybe it would make more sense to have that guard write down the answer (and throw in a pencil and a few extra sheets of paper)...
replies(1): >>flir+Gy3
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43. flir+Gy3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-06-09 09:10:15
>>saghm+xo2
"Label the guards, 1 to 50, starting with you as 1, the guard to your left as 2, etc. For each guard, tell me what answer they would give if I asked them if your door was safe".

If all the guards say the same thing, you're talking to the lying guard. Otherwise the liar is simply the one that answers differently.

Would that work? I think so.

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