zlacker

[parent] [thread] 51 comments
1. 5e92cb+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-22 22:46:32
Do they care? The mob will shout for a week or two and then turn their attention somewhere else. spez (the reddit chief) said something like that about their users, and he was absolutely right. A few days ago I was re-reading some of those threads about reddit API changes from ten months back where so many users claimed it was their last message and they were leaving for good. Almost none of them did. I checked two dozen profiles and all but one of them had fresh comments posted within that same day.
replies(19): >>kylebl+D >>jsnell+f1 >>dullcr+p3 >>uddiyg+O3 >>solida+X4 >>jprete+i7 >>devben+D8 >>discor+Ya >>tsunam+1e >>beeeee+Ok >>837204+2o >>vb234+Bo >>jrflow+pr >>hehdhd+1y >>Locutu+zD >>tivert+AI >>olalon+6U >>ruszki+JV >>mrtksn+8W
2. kylebl+D[view] [source] 2024-05-22 22:50:23
>>5e92cb+(OP)
The mob that Vox represents these days is miniscule
replies(1): >>hashta+03
3. jsnell+f1[view] [source] 2024-05-22 22:54:09
>>5e92cb+(OP)
This is them fucking over their employees though, not the public, and in a very concrete manner. Threats to rob them of millions - maybe tens of millions - are going to hurt more than losing access to a third-party Reddit client.

And the employees also have way more leverage than Reddit users; at this point they should still be OpenAI's greatest asset. Even once this is fixed (which they obviously will do, given they got caught), it's still going to cause a major loss of trust in the entire leadership.

replies(1): >>grepfr+66
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4. hashta+03[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 23:02:07
>>kylebl+D
It’s remarkable to see the hoi polloi to stand by CEOs and big corporations, rather than defending the few parts of the media that stand for regular workers.
replies(2): >>parine+gx >>ecjhdn+Hx
5. dullcr+p3[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:04:25
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I stopped browsing Reddit. I imagine the people who posted comments to Reddit saying they’re going to leave Reddit aren’t a representative sample.
replies(1): >>lobste+P8
6. uddiyg+O3[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:06:51
>>5e92cb+(OP)
They probably care more about the effect on potential hires who are gonna second think by the fact that part of their pay may be cancelled due to some disagreement
7. solida+X4[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:14:02
>>5e92cb+(OP)
It is hard to compete for high-end AI research and AI engineering talent. This definitely matters and they definitely should care. Their equity situation was already a bit of a barrier by being so unusual, now it's going to be a harder sell.

I know extremely desirable researchers who refuse to work for Elon because of how he has historically treated employees. Repeated issues like this will slowly add OpenAI to that list for more people.

replies(1): >>hehdhd+Vy
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8. grepfr+66[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 23:19:15
>>jsnell+f1
Employees are replaceable. Outside of a very specific few, they have very little leverage. If an employee loses trust and leaves or “quiet quits”, they will simply be replaced with one of the hundreds of people clamoring to work for them. This is why unionization is so great.

Just as Reddit users stay on Reddit because there is nowhere else to go, the reality is that everyone worships leadership because they keep their paychecks flowing.

replies(2): >>comp_t+P6 >>squigz+R6
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9. comp_t+P6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 23:23:09
>>grepfr+66
Yes, that "very little leverage" is why engineers & researchers near the bottom of OpenAI's career ladder are getting paid 900k/year (2/3rds funny money, admittedly, though in practice many people _have_ cashed out at very large multiples).
replies(1): >>grepfr+Zx1
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10. squigz+R6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 23:23:10
>>grepfr+66
Employees are replaceable, sure, but that doesn't mean that you can't squander your good will with competent employees and end up only being able to hire sub-par employees.
replies(1): >>grepfr+cy1
11. jprete+i7[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:25:35
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I'm guessing the ones who actually left Reddit did what I did - they disengaged from the site and then deleted all their content and accounts. It's pointless to complain without any actual power.

The relevant stakeholders here are the potential future employees, who are seeing in public exactly how OpenAI treats its employees.

12. devben+D8[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:32:10
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I went from very active on multiple subreddits to barely posting once every few months. Instead of answering programming questions or helping people get in shape I'm on other sites doing other things.

Changes like that are hard to measure.

replies(1): >>gundmc+bh
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13. lobste+P8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-22 23:32:58
>>dullcr+p3
Same. Redditor for 15 years and the API thing was the last straw.

I didn’t post about not engaging with or using the platform anymore. Nor did I delete my account, since it still holds some value to me. But I slinked away into the darkness and now HN is my social media tool.

replies(3): >>andret+9l >>warche+nl >>speff+4p
14. discor+Ya[view] [source] 2024-05-22 23:45:46
>>5e92cb+(OP)
It’s not easy to get out of an abusive relationship
15. tsunam+1e[view] [source] 2024-05-23 00:02:05
>>5e92cb+(OP)
Sam Altman has stated over and over again, publicly: "I don't care what other people think." And I'm not paraphrasing.
replies(1): >>over_b+4v
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16. gundmc+bh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 00:20:43
>>devben+D8
> I went from very active on multiple subreddits to barely posting once every few months. Instead of answering programming questions or helping people get in shape I'm on other sites doing other things. Changes like that are hard to measure.

Changes in sentiment can be hard to measure, but changes in posting behavior seems incredibly easy to measure.

replies(2): >>singro+lk >>warche+6l
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17. singro+lk[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 00:44:51
>>gundmc+bh
How do you measure without the API?
18. beeeee+Ok[view] [source] 2024-05-23 00:48:13
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I actively quit producing content and deleted my account.

Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but I do feel like the quality of discourse has taken a nose dive.

replies(1): >>Tao330+Dp
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19. warche+6l[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 00:49:53
>>gundmc+bh
It’s the rule of ten (I made that up) 1:10 upvote. 1:10 of them comment. 1:10 post.

The people barking are actually the least worrisome, they’re highly engaged. The meat of your users say nothing and are only visible in-house.

That said, they also don’t give a shit about most of this. They want their content and they want it now. I am very confident spez knows exactly what he’s talking about.

replies(1): >>Tao330+Sq
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20. andret+9l[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 00:50:02
>>lobste+P8
Same here on everything you mentioned
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21. warche+nl[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 00:51:21
>>lobste+P8
Delete early, delete often. Never keep an old Reddit account around. I torch mine and build anew every year just out of principle.
replies(4): >>837204+do >>al_bor+Pp >>hughes+JD >>EMM_38+tQ
22. 837204+2o[view] [source] 2024-05-23 01:11:53
>>5e92cb+(OP)
When the changes went through I nuked all my comments and then my account. I don't know if many others did the same, but if so it would mean that you wouldn't see our "I'm leaving" comments anymore, i.e. that we wouldn't be included in your samples.
replies(1): >>Tao330+rp
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23. 837204+do[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:13:34
>>warche+nl
Same! Except I've basically stopped using reddit. It used to be that if I got a "happy cake day" then I knew nuking the account was overdue.
24. vb234+Bo[view] [source] 2024-05-23 01:16:28
>>5e92cb+(OP)
My activity on Reddit has gone way down since they stopped supporting .compact view on mobile. I definitely miss it and want to go back but it’s incredibly hard to engage with the content on mobile browsers now.
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25. speff+4p[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:21:39
>>lobste+P8
15y account here too - also quit. Tried lemmy for a while and didn't like it. At least it helped me kick the reddit habit. Don't even go there anymore

https://old.reddit.com/u/speff

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26. Tao330+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:24:21
>>837204+2o
Yeah, reading old threads is weird. The majority of everything is intact, but there's enough deleted or mangled comments that it is an effective minor inconvenience.
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27. Tao330+Dp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:26:30
>>beeeee+Ok
The discourse is about the same, trouble is the only mods left are the truly batshit ones.
replies(1): >>martin+Av
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28. al_bor+Pp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:28:03
>>warche+nl
I didn’t have a schedule, but probably had 5 or 6 accounts over the years… purging, deleting, and a few weeks later rejoining. The last time I deleted everything was before the API changes, and it was the last straw. I haven’t attempted to create a new account and don’t browse at all. I used to spend hours per day there. Now the only time I end up there is if a search engine directs me there for an answer to a specific question I have.
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29. Tao330+Sq[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:37:06
>>warche+6l
Some salty downvotes going on in here!
replies(1): >>warche+Cs
30. jrflow+pr[view] [source] 2024-05-23 01:41:02
>>5e92cb+(OP)
> I checked two dozen profiles and all but one of them had fresh comments posted within that same day.

I also remember when the internet was talking about the twenty four Reddit accounts that threatened to quit the site. It’s enlightening to see that the protest the size of Jethro Tull didn’t impact the site

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31. warche+Cs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 01:51:07
>>Tao330+Sq
Imagine how many people I actually pissed off to get those downvotes!
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32. over_b+4v[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:12:18
>>tsunam+1e
Once you learn that online outrage doesn't actually impact your life that much, its easy to ignore. Gone are the days of public apologies and now we just sweep criticism under the rug and carry on.
replies(1): >>tsunam+QP
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33. martin+Av[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:16:42
>>Tao330+Dp
If that's true, wouldn't that imply that the mods aren't very effective?
replies(1): >>jachee+jH
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34. parine+gx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:32:07
>>hashta+03
It's not about taking sides, it's about not caring. Everyone is tired of getting worked up over super rich CEOs being "aggressive" to their very rich employees and your,"if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude.
replies(2): >>ecjhdn+Ux >>optima+zU
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35. ecjhdn+Hx[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:36:31
>>hashta+03
This is how anything political (big or small P) works.

Aspirations keep people voting against their interests.

I personally worry that the way fans of OpenAI and Stability AI are lining up to criticise artists for demanding to be compensated, or accusing them of “gatekeeping” could be folded into a wider populism, the way 4chan shitposting became a political position. When populism turns on artists it’s usually a bad sign.

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36. ecjhdn+Ux[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:38:32
>>parine+gx
First they came for the Sheldon Coopers, and I did not speak out
37. hehdhd+1y[view] [source] 2024-05-23 02:39:12
>>5e92cb+(OP)
Personally I only use Lemmy now. I never made a goodbye/fuck spez post, I just stopped using Reddit.

I think your sample frame is off, they did themselves unforced damage in the long run.

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38. hehdhd+Vy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 02:47:55
>>solida+X4
Meanwhile the stock Google pays you can be cashed out same day. Really dumb move for OpenAI.
replies(1): >>solida+dR
39. Locutu+zD[view] [source] 2024-05-23 03:26:31
>>5e92cb+(OP)
Honestly, from a moderation perspective, the dropoff has been stark - the quality of work behind the scenes has dropped off a cliff on most larger subreddits, and the quality of the content those subreddits facilitate has reduced in quality in turn.

It's definitely had a very impact - but since it's not one that's likely to hit the bottom line in the short term, it's not like it matters in any way beyond the user experience.

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40. hughes+JD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 03:28:49
>>warche+nl
For me it's been every six months. I've even given some creds for burned accounts to the void for the heck of it.

That said, I think you could easily correlate my hn activity with my reddit usage (inverse proportionality). Loving it tbh, higher quality content overall and better than slashdot ever was

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41. jachee+jH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 04:12:22
>>martin+Av
You get what you pay for. ;)
42. tivert+AI[view] [source] 2024-05-23 04:27:08
>>5e92cb+(OP)
> A few days ago I was re-reading some of those threads about reddit API changes from ten months back where so many users claimed it was their last message and they were leaving for good. Almost none of them did. I checked two dozen profiles and all but one of them had fresh comments posted within that same day.

Lots of people have pointed out problems with your determination, but here's another one: can you really tell none of those people are posting to subvert reddit? I'm not going to go into details for privacy reasons, but I've "quit" websites in protest while continuing to post subversive content afterwards. Even after I "quit," I'm sure my activity looked good in the site's internal metrics, even though it was 100% focused on discouraging other users.

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43. tsunam+QP[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 05:47:36
>>over_b+4v
I think trump taught us that very few people will stop you physically if you just ignore what they have to say.
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44. EMM_38+tQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 05:53:02
>>warche+nl
I honestly have given up in this battle.

I'm curious, what do you think deleting accounts and starting new is going to do?

They'll just link it all together another way.

replies(1): >>warche+pU2
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45. solida+dR[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 06:00:58
>>hehdhd+Vy
I think it might just be a consequence of an approach to business that, in aggregate, has been very effective.
46. olalon+6U[view] [source] 2024-05-23 06:29:42
>>5e92cb+(OP)
The risk is not users boycotting them. The risk is OpenAI having trouble recruiting and retaining top talent, which will cause them to eventually fall behind the competition, leading users to naturally leave.
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47. optima+zU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 06:33:46
>>parine+gx
How do you think those same CEOs would treat their not-so-rich employees?
48. ruszki+JV[view] [source] 2024-05-23 06:44:07
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I haven't stopped using it immediately, but it definitely added to the growing list of problems. I don't use that site anymore, except when a search result directs me there. Even then it's a second choice of mine, because I need to disable my VPN to access it, and I won't login.
49. mrtksn+8W[view] [source] 2024-05-23 06:48:06
>>5e92cb+(OP)
I actually find myself to be using reddit much less. It’s not that I protesting, but it feels like the community changed into something more like Facebook folks. It doesn’t feel cutting edge anymore, it’s much more tamed stale. The fresh stuff isn’t on Reddit anymore.
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50. grepfr+Zx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 12:01:56
>>comp_t+P6
Your salary is not leverage..
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51. grepfr+cy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 12:03:08
>>squigz+R6
Yes. OpenAI will only attract sub-par employees. And even if it’s not OpenAI, you simply raise your offered salary and suddenly the subpar employees vanish.
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52. warche+pU2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-23 19:28:13
>>EMM_38+tQ
they can.

you can’t.

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