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1. kamika+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-15 14:30:33
who is this and why is it important? [1]

super-alignment co-lead with Ilya (who resigned yesterday)

what is super alignment? [2]

> We need scientific and technical breakthroughs to steer and control AI systems much smarter than us. Our goal is to solve the core technical challenges of superintelligence alignment by 2027.

[1] https://jan.leike.name/ [2] https://openai.com/superalignment/

replies(4): >>jvande+U1 >>legohe+Ib >>TiredO+3j >>colibr+fm1
2. jvande+U1[view] [source] 2024-05-15 14:40:16
>>kamika+(OP)
My honest-to-god guess is that it just seemed like a needless cost center in a growing business, so there was pressure against them doing the work they wanted to do.

I'm guessing, but OpenAI probably wants to start monetizing, and doesn't feel like they are going to hit a superintelligence, not really. That may have been the goal originally.

replies(7): >>for_i_+33 >>threet+c4 >>icapyb+x4 >>mjr00+b5 >>llamai+v5 >>holler+J5 >>holler+Ws8
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3. for_i_+33[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:45:37
>>jvande+U1
I agree. Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Microsoft looked at a $10m+/year cost center, and deemed it unnecessary (which it arguably was), and snipped it.
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4. threet+c4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:51:09
>>jvande+U1
I assume a lot of companies want in on the AI-to-purchase pipeline. "Hey [AI] what kind of car is this?" with a response that helps you buy it at the very high end, or something as simple as "hey [AI] I need more bread, it's [brand and type]" and who it gets purchased from and how it shows up is the... bread and butter of the AI company.

Super intelligent AI seems contrary to the goals of consumerist Capitalism, but maybe I'm just not smart enough to see the play there.

replies(1): >>imzadi+Jr
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5. icapyb+x4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:51:56
>>jvande+U1
This is the simplest explanation.
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6. mjr00+b5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:55:12
>>jvande+U1
Yeah, OpenAI is all-in on the LLM golden goose and is much more focused on how to monetize it via embedding advertisements, continuing to provide "safety" via topic restrictions, etc., than going further down the AGI route.

There's zero chance LLMs lead to AGI or superintelligence, so if that's all OpenAI is going to focus on for the next ~5 years, a group related to superintelligence alignment is unnecessary.

replies(1): >>stewar+98
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7. llamai+v5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:57:22
>>jvande+U1
So you mean the things the charter foresaw and was intended to make impossible is in fact happening? Who could've thunk it (other than the creators of the charter and nearly anyone else with a loose grasp on how capitalism and technology interact).
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8. holler+J5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 14:58:25
>>jvande+U1
>it just seemed like a needless cost center in a growing business

To some of us, that sounds like, "Fire all the climate scientists because they are needless cost center distracting us from the noble goal of burning as much fossil fuel as possible."

replies(1): >>mjr00+r7
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9. mjr00+r7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:05:53
>>holler+J5
It's more like you started a company to research new fuel sources and hired climate scientists to evaluate the environmental impact of those new fuel sources, but during the course of the research you invented a new internal combustion engine that operates 1000% more efficiently so you pivoted your entire business toward that, removing the need for climate scientists.

This is a tortured analogy, but what I'm getting at is, if OpenAI is no longer pursuing AGI/superintelligence, it doesn't need an expensive superintelligence alignment team.

replies(2): >>holler+bc >>marius+hc
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10. stewar+98[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:08:38
>>mjr00+b5
How can you be so certain there is 0 chance LLMs lead to AGI/Superintelligence? Asking curiously, not something I've heard prior.
replies(3): >>guhida+xb >>guitar+Bc >>barlin+sd
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11. guhida+xb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:23:57
>>stewar+98
I'm 100% certain that I need to do more than just predict the next token to be considered intelligent. Also call me when ChatGPT can manipulate matter.
replies(2): >>soulof+Ff >>mypalm+211
12. legohe+Ib[view] [source] 2024-05-15 15:24:25
>>kamika+(OP)
What is the "intelligence" behind a word predictor?
replies(1): >>DrSiem+682
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13. holler+bc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:26:22
>>mjr00+r7
You're much more confident than I am that the researchers at OpenAI (or anyone else currently alive) are masters of their craft to such an extent that they would even be able to predict whether the next big training run they do will result in a superintelligence or not. Another way of saying the same thing is to say that the only way anyone knows that GPT-4 is not dangerously capable is that it has been deployed extensively enough by now that if it was going to harm us, it would've done so by now: not even the researchers that designed and coded-up GPT-4 or watched it during training could predict with any confidence how capable it would be. For example, everyone was quite surprised by its being able to score in the 90th decile on a bar exam.

Also, even if they never produce a superintelligence, they are likely to produce insights that would make it easier for other teams to produce a superintelligence. (Since employees are free to leave OpenAI and join some other team, there is no practical way to prevent the flow of insights out of OpenAI.)

replies(3): >>Michae+3i2 >>anakai+xn2 >>inimin+Av2
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14. marius+hc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:27:12
>>mjr00+r7
> if OpenAI is no longer pursuing AGI/superintelligence

What leads you to believe that's true?

replies(2): >>mjr00+Pe >>root_a+kF
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15. guitar+Bc[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:29:18
>>stewar+98
Pure LLM based approach will not lead to AGI, I'm 100% sure. A new research paper has shown [0] that no matter what LLM model is used, it exhibits diminishing returns, when you would be wanting at least a linear curve when looking for AGI.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDUC-LqVrPU

replies(1): >>sebzim+mf
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16. barlin+sd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:33:00
>>stewar+98
LLMs are gigantic curves fitted to civilizational scale datasets. LLM predictions are based on this. A language model is a mathematical construct and can only be as intelligent as that Algebra book sitting on your shelf.
replies(2): >>holler+oe >>dwaltr+QB
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17. holler+oe[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:37:41
>>barlin+sd
>LLMs are gigantic curves fitted to civilizational scale datasets

>A language model is a mathematical construct

That is like telling someone from the Middle Ages that a gun is merely an assemblage of metal parts not too different from the horseshoes and cast-iron nails produced by your village blacksmith and consequently it is safe to give a child a loaded gun.

ADDED. Actually a better response (because it does not rely on an analogy) is to point out that none of the people who are upset over the possibility that most of the benefits of AI might accrue to a few tech titans and billionaires would be in the least bit re-assured by being told that an AI model is just a mathematical construct.

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18. mjr00+Pe[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:39:28
>>marius+hc
Microsoft dumping $10 billion into them to commercialize LLM tech, primarily.
replies(1): >>marius+HN
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19. sebzim+mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:41:58
>>guitar+Bc
Based on the abstract this is about image models not LLMs
replies(1): >>guitar+zU
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20. soulof+Ff[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 15:43:31
>>guhida+xb
> Also call me when ChatGPT can manipulate matter.

You mean like PALM-E? https://palm-e.github.io/

Embodiment is the easy part.

21. TiredO+3j[view] [source] 2024-05-15 15:57:43
>>kamika+(OP)
> We need scientific and technical breakthroughs to steer and control AI systems much smarter than us. Our goal is to solve the core technical challenges of superintelligence alignment by 2027

Can somebody translate this to human?

replies(1): >>branda+zX
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22. imzadi+Jr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 16:36:47
>>threet+c4
I think what companies want is to replace as many human employees as possible. I don't think they really care what the consequences of that are.
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23. dwaltr+QB[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 17:22:11
>>barlin+sd
An algebra book is a collection of paper pages with ink on them. An LLM is... nothing like that at all. LLMs are complex machines that operate on data and produce data. Books are completely static. They don't do anything.

Do you have a better analogy? I'd like to hear more about how ML models can't be intelligent, if you don't mind.

I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that we know enough at this point to make that claim definitively.

replies(1): >>andsoi+Zu1
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24. root_a+kF[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 17:38:46
>>marius+hc
You can't build a business on AGI, which is an unbounded research project without any foreseeable end or path to revenue. However, LLMs definitely have some commercial value and OpenAI has a first-mover market advantage that they'd be insane to squander from a business perspective. I'm sure they will continue to do research in advancements of AI, but AGI is still science fiction.
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25. marius+HN[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 18:22:40
>>mjr00+Pe
If anything, in my opinion, the more runway they have, the better chances to actually hit an inflexion point in AGI development. But maybe you're right.
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26. guitar+zU[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 19:02:26
>>sebzim+mf
Ah fair point, should've read it more carefully.

I'm tuning my probabilities back to 99%, I still don't believe just feeding more data to the LLM will do it. But I'll give the chance a possibility.

replies(1): >>DrSiem+R72
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27. branda+zX[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 19:17:12
>>TiredO+3j
That by 2027 they will figure out how to control Skynet so it doesn't kill us all when it awakens.
replies(1): >>TiredO+2Y4
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28. mypalm+211[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 19:36:33
>>guhida+xb
Are you 100% certain that the human brain performs no language processing which is analogous to token prediction?
replies(1): >>stubis+CH1
29. colibr+fm1[view] [source] 2024-05-15 21:35:27
>>kamika+(OP)
What are these core technical challenges ?
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30. andsoi+Zu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 22:34:34
>>dwaltr+QB
> Books are completely static. They don't do anything.

Books (and writing) are a big force in cultural evolution.

replies(1): >>dwaltr+5F1
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31. dwaltr+5F1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 00:09:34
>>andsoi+Zu1
Yes, I love books. They are awesome. But we are talking about machine intelligence, so that's not super relevant.

Books aren't data/info-processing machines, by themselves. LLMs are.

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32. stubis+CH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 00:34:33
>>mypalm+211
A human brain certainly does do predictions, which is very useful to the bit that makes decisions. But how does a pure prediction engine make decisions? Make a judgement call? Analyze inconsistencies? Theorize? The best it can do is blindly follow the mob, a behavior we consider unintelligent even when done by human brains.
replies(1): >>craken+i12
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33. craken+i12[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 04:37:07
>>stubis+CH1
> But how does a pure prediction engine make decisions? Make a judgement call? Analyze inconsistencies? Theorize?

My intuition leads me to believe that these are arising properties/characteristics of complex and large prediction engines. A sufficiently good prediction/optimization engine can act in an agentic way, while never had that explicit goal.

I recently read this very interesting piece that dives into this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/kpPnReyBC54KESiSn/optimality...

replies(1): >>soulof+3x2
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34. DrSiem+R72[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 06:01:31
>>guitar+zU
Obviously feeding more data won't do anything besides increase the knowledge available.

Next steps would be in totally different fields, like implementing actual reasoning, global outline planning and the capacity to evolve after training is done.

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35. DrSiem+682[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 06:04:19
>>legohe+Ib
Fake it till you make it
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36. Michae+3i2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 08:25:34
>>holler+bc
Why do they need to be 'masters of their craft' to place directional bets?
replies(1): >>holler+4w2
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37. anakai+xn2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 09:38:13
>>holler+bc
Call me uninformed, but I do not see a way forward where a statistical model trained to recognise relationships between words or groups of words, and has a front end coded to query that model could suddenly develop its own independence. That's a whole other thing, where the code to interact with it must allow for constant feedback loops of self.improvement and the vast amount of evolutionary activity that entails.

An interactive mathematical model is not going to run away on its own without some very deliberate steps to take it in that direction.

replies(2): >>HDThor+2v2 >>fnordp+K53
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38. HDThor+2v2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 11:19:22
>>anakai+xn2
We have no idea how consciousness works. Just because you dont see a way forward doesnt mean its not there
replies(1): >>echoan+iR4
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39. inimin+Av2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 11:27:31
>>holler+bc
As someone who has worked on LLMs somewhat extensively, the idea that we are going to accidentally make a superintelligence by that path is literally laughable.
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40. holler+4w2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 11:34:53
>>Michae+3i2
Hmm. It's hard for me to see why you think 'diectional bet' helps us understand the situation.

Certainly, the researchers want the model to be as useful as possible, so there we have what I would call a 'directional bet', but since usefulness is correlated with capability to potentially do harm (i.e., dangerousness) that bet is probably not what you are referring to.

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41. soulof+3x2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 11:46:35
>>craken+i12
I'm of the belief that the entire conscious experience is a side effect of the need for us to make rapid predictions when time is of the essence, such as when hunting or fleeing. Otherwise, our subconscious could probably handle most of the work just fine.
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42. fnordp+K53[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-16 15:08:55
>>anakai+xn2
You’re right. But are you saying LLMs couldn’t be a part of a more complex system similar to how our brain appears to be several integrated systems with special purpose and interdependence? I assume you’re not assuming everything is static and open ai is incapable of doing anything other offering incremental refinements in chatgpt? Just because they released X doesn’t mean Y+X isn’t coming. And we are talking about a longer game than “right this very second” - where do things go over 10 years? It’s not like open ai is going anywhere.

Maybe the guys who point out tar in tobacco is dangerous and nicotine is addictive maybe we shouldn’t add more for profit and such things would be useful just in case we get there.

But even if we don’t - an increasingly capable multimodal AI has a lot of utility for good and bad. Are we creating power tools with no safety? Or safety written by a bunch of engineers whose life experience extends to their PhD program at an exclusive school studying advanced mathematics? When their limited world collides with complex moral and ethical domains they don’t always have enough context to know why things are the way they are and our forefathers aren’t idiots. They often blunder into a mistake out of hubris.

Put it another way the chance they succeed is non zero. The possibility they succeed and they create a powerful tool that’s incredibly dangerous is non zero too. Maybe we should try to hedge that risk ?

replies(1): >>anakai+sQ9
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43. echoan+iR4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 03:35:16
>>HDThor+2v2
I think the point was that on a purely technical level, the LLMs as currently used can’t do anything on their own. They only continue a prompt when given. It’s not like a LLM could “decide” to hack the NSA and publish the data tomorrow, because it determined that this would help humanity. The only thing it can do is try to make people do something when they read the responses.
replies(1): >>anakai+BQ9
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44. TiredO+2Y4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-17 05:02:48
>>branda+zX
So chains and shackles or domestication?
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45. holler+Ws8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-18 15:55:57
>>jvande+U1
If AGI is no longer Sam Altman's goal, why was he recently trying to raise 7 trillion dollars for hardware to accelerate progress in AI?
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46. anakai+sQ9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-19 08:30:15
>>fnordp+K53
I was not saying that LLMs could not be part of a more complex system. What I was saying is that the more complex system is what likely needs to be the focus of discussion rather than the LLM itself.

Basically- the LLM won't run away on its own.

I do agree with a safety focus and guardrails. I dont agree with chicken little sky is falling claims.

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47. anakai+BQ9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-19 08:32:07
>>echoan+iR4
This is a good interpretation of the point I was getting at, yes.
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