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1. hbarka+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-05-14 23:59:29
There’s a halo around Ilya Sutskever as the Albert Einstein of AI. Are there others on par with his— umm, how would you qualify it—- AI intuition or are we idolizing?
replies(6): >>wddkcs+W1 >>layer8+i2 >>kypro+p5 >>kadush+D8 >>twobit+8i >>bpiche+HG
2. wddkcs+W1[view] [source] 2024-05-15 00:16:12
>>hbarka+(OP)
Reifing, you can't help but not in English. Capabilities are given intention, intentions given classes, and godhood is a class...
3. layer8+i2[view] [source] 2024-05-15 00:20:39
>>hbarka+(OP)
Personality cult.
replies(2): >>BryanL+N7 >>ignora+S7
4. kypro+p5[view] [source] 2024-05-15 00:50:54
>>hbarka+(OP)
I think you're idolizing perhaps.

There's no doubt Ilya is highly respected in the field, but not to the same extent as Albert Einstein is in physics.

Maybe with time, but certainly not today.

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5. BryanL+N7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 01:10:08
>>layer8+i2
He's certainly got the hair down!
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6. ignora+S7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 01:10:38
>>layer8+i2
Elon Musk and Larry Page broke their friendship over Ilya's move from Google to OpenAI. There's more than just cult around a personality here, when two of the most powerful people in tech, who are also friends, go to war over you.
replies(1): >>reduce+Dg
7. kadush+D8[view] [source] 2024-05-15 01:17:18
>>hbarka+(OP)
You have used an excellent term: AI intuition. This quality is extremely rare. Einstein probably had a similar kind of intuition in physics, and maybe that's why he was so successful. The ability to see what direction to pursue. Ilya has demonstrated it again and again, first with Alexnet (Hinton said Ilya was the person driving the project, believing in its success when no one else did, while Alex was the main implementer), then with OpenAI when he believed scaling up models is "all we need" to get to AGI, when very few people would agree with that. Today he believes the alignment is very important - perhaps we should listen to him.
replies(2): >>dj_mc_+Oa >>goatlo+ib
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8. dj_mc_+Oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 01:40:28
>>kadush+D8
Einstein famously disagreed with many facets of QM that we now believe to be true or at least closer to the truth than he was.
replies(2): >>goatlo+rb >>kadush+Oi
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9. goatlo+ib[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 01:45:57
>>kadush+D8
There's no AGI yet. It's unclear that scaling up existing models gets anyone there. But if it was already here, alignment would be too late.
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10. goatlo+rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 01:47:06
>>dj_mc_+Oa
Doesn't that depend on the interpretation of QM? There are still physicists who defend hidden variables and determinism. It should be noted Einstein was arguing with the founders of the Copenhagen interpretation, which has left many physicists dissatisfied. Sean Carol being a prominent current detractor (although is version of determinism is Many Worlds).
replies(1): >>vitus+xp
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11. reduce+Dg[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 02:43:00
>>ignora+S7
I don't believe it was that. I thought Elon most recently said it was Page calling Elon a "speciesist" when Elon cared that humans need to still exist, while Page is of the e/acc bit that AI's are our successors and the most competitive between them and us should go on.
replies(2): >>ignora+Di >>nothro+Nr
12. twobit+8i[view] [source] 2024-05-15 03:01:36
>>hbarka+(OP)
Yann LeCun is better known, right?
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13. ignora+Di[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 03:07:59
>>reduce+Dg
You miss remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nORLckDnmg&t=75

mirror: https://ghostarchive.org/varchive/7nORLckDnmg (1m 15s)

replies(1): >>reduce+HB
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14. kadush+Oi[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 03:08:52
>>dj_mc_+Oa
That might be because he didn't like what he discovered, or the results didn't make sense to him. But it was the intuition that got him there in the first place.

But you have a good point. Ilya got us so much closer to AGI, but he might not like the results now.

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15. vitus+xp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 04:28:15
>>goatlo+rb
Einstein wasn't arguing just against the Copenhagen interpretation, he was arguing against the very notion of physical nondeterminism.

In fact, his arguments against nonlocality were later disproven experimentally in the '80s, as quantum mechanics allowed for much higher fidelity predictions than could be explained by a hidden variable theory [0].

I don't think anyone _likes_ the Copenhagen interpretation per se, it's just the least objectionable choice (if you have to make one at all). Many-worlds sounds cool and all until you realize that it's essentially impossible to verify experimentally, and at that point you're discussing philosophy and what-if more than physics.

Intuition only gets you as far as the accuracy of your mental model. Is it intuitive that the volume enclosed by the unit hypersphere approaches zero [1] as its dimensions go to infinity? Or that photons have momentum, but no mass? Or you can draw higher-dimension Venn diagrams with sectors that have negative area? If these all make intuitive sense to you, I'm jealous that your intuition extends further than mine.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume_of_an_n-ball

replies(1): >>layer8+uM
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16. nothro+Nr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 04:56:44
>>reduce+Dg
That is one side of the story.
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17. reduce+HB[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 06:53:17
>>ignora+Di
Ok, corrected. They got into a heated argument about what I was saying, but Elon says it's about recruiting Ilya.
18. bpiche+HG[view] [source] 2024-05-15 07:48:08
>>hbarka+(OP)
Schmidhüber
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19. layer8+uM[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 08:39:58
>>vitus+xp
Many-worlds is not necessarily impossible to verify experimentally, because it predicts that there is no collapse of the wave function, whereas Copenhagen claims that there is. Many-worlds is not just an interpretation in that sense, it’s a theory that makes predictions (by reasoning about what happens when the wave function is all there is and always evolves according to the Schroedinger equation — it is a deterministic theory in that sense). I believe Einstein would have liked it, given the experimental evidence we have since.

Copenhagen, on the other hand, doesn’t offer a workable model of how and when the wave function collapses, and doesn’t offer any predictions in that way (there are theories of wave function collapse that actually make predictions — some of which have already been falsified by experiment). For that reason Copenhagen isn’t “least objectionable”.

replies(1): >>vitus+L91
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20. vitus+L91[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-05-15 12:22:14
>>layer8+uM
One of the key phrases I said was "(if you have to make one at all)" -- wavefunction collapse is inherently messy, since the notion of measurement is not well-defined or understood. I would argue that "don't care" is likely a more common interpretation among practicing physicists (of which I am emphatically not!), as this is very much in a realm where general intuition largely does not apply.

Copenhagen is basically an admission that we have no good intuition for why QM behaves the way it does, and wavefunction collapse is merely a way of justifying existing observations within the framework of QM.

IMO all the discussion about how wavefunction collapse doesn't scale to larger ensembles of particles, or the boundary between QM and Newtonian mechanics being ill-defined is noise -- the bridge between the two is statistical mechanics, where classical mechanics only arises from sufficiently large macrostates such that you can aggregate out any quantum mechanical properties. And QM is generally understood to be a toy model in the same way that Newtonian mechanics is a toy model -- it's useful in the realm where we use it, but when you push beyond the limits of that realm, its deficiencies become apparent.

That's why I don't think the proposed experiments to test many-worlds are particularly meaningful (since AFAIK they all seem to involve performing interference on enormous ensembles on the scale of entire humans) -- it's well beyond the limits of where QM is useful (also, I personally don't think we'll ever be able to operate quantum-mechanically at that scale).

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