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[parent] [thread] 10 comments
1. ajross+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-26 23:11:57
> All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then?

It remains a mess, but less of a mess? Look, it's all bad guys running the show in that hell hole of a desert. There are no trusted entities anywhere able to run a government that isn't somewhere between actively antagonistic and actively genocidal toward half the local population.

Nonetheless a status quo with less shooting and death is better than a status quo with more. Hamas killed fewer people than Israel did/is, so... yeah, I guess. An occasional October 7th is a better choice than levelling Gaza is. Incrementally. But none of this is going to get better, likely within our lifetimes.

replies(2): >>aureli+ka >>weathe+Fj1
2. aureli+ka[view] [source] 2024-01-27 00:15:11
>>ajross+(OP)
> Hamas killed fewer people than Israel did/is

That's an understatement, Hamas killed less than 1,000 civilians, Israel killed 20,000+

replies(2): >>gaffer+hr >>weathe+Ck1
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3. gaffer+hr[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 02:31:56
>>aureli+ka
Hamas directly and intentionally targeted civilians. Israel is doing what it can to limit civilian casualties while destroying Hamas. Hamas is making that very difficult by blending in with the population, putting command centers under major hospitals and so on.
replies(2): >>Lord-J+Gy >>slowtu+KP
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4. Lord-J+Gy[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 03:38:32
>>gaffer+hr
> Israel is doing what it can to limit civilian casualties while destroying Hamas.

You should really read the parent article at the top of the page. It doesn't support this statement and the court ruling was created from a mountain of evidence.

replies(1): >>Sabinu+BG
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5. Sabinu+BG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 05:06:00
>>Lord-J+Gy
How close does it come to intentionally targeting civilians?
replies(1): >>ImPost+9H1
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6. slowtu+KP[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 07:05:27
>>gaffer+hr
> Hamas is making that very difficult by blending in with the population, putting command centers under major hospitals and so on.

If there's a command center under a hospital, then you don't bomb the hospital. The fact that your enemy is using "human shields" doesn't mean that it's justified to bomb and kill everyone, including the shields. Now every relative and friend of the innocent people you killed has a reason to pick up a gun against you.

Obviously this puts you at a disadvantage. Instead of bombing targets on a screen from the comfort of an air-conditioned office in Tel Aviv, you'll have to send special forces in on the ground and probably take a lot of casualties. But you demonstrate to the civilians that you're not just killing them indiscriminately.

replies(1): >>LegitS+q92
7. weathe+Fj1[view] [source] 2024-01-27 13:04:55
>>ajross+(OP)
> An occasional October 7th is a better choice than levelling Gaza is

Better for who? For Hamas yes, killing Israelis with impunity would be a boost. But for Israel - I don't know of any democracy that can keep going with an 'occasional' October 7th. A country can't sustain that without collapsing at some point. Think about 9-11 but with 80k killed instead of 3000, and around 10000 kidnapped. And the entity responsible is just around the corner and gonna keep doing it on occasion. Those are the proportions. How many of these would the U.S be able to endure before its economy and society collapsed?

replies(1): >>ajross+dM1
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8. weathe+Ck1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 13:12:02
>>aureli+ka
All Palestinians deaths are civilians by your measures.
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9. ImPost+9H1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 16:04:19
>>Sabinu+BG
They hunted down, shot, and killed multiple of their own, underwear-clad civilian citizens who were all the while waving white flags and loudly surrendering in hebrew [0]

Imagine the sort of intentional targeting we don't get to see, because the journalists are killed [1] or the internet is cut [2] or the power is cut [3] or because everyone hiding is terrified to even move, knowing anything moving will be shot on sight [4], even surrendering Israeli hostages [0]. What a nightmare.

Known (indeed, willing) indiscriminate killing of civilians (especially in civilian areas, yikes) is as much a war crime [5] as "intentionally targeting civilians", even if one shouts "get out of there!" or "human shields!" or "terrorists!" or "it's comin' right for us!" in a Calvinball-style declaration whilst doing it.

For more detailed analysis of how Israel seems to be ignoring their obligation to protect Palestinian civilians, I recommend consulting the full ruling [6] from the ICJ, the literal judges of this matter.

0: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/04/world/middleeast/israel-h...

1: https://cpj.org/2024/01/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-...

2: https://www.wired.com/story/israel-gaza-internet-blackouts-w...

3: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67073970

4: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/idf-sniper-gaza-ch...

5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiscriminate_attack#The_1977...

6 (PDF warning): https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

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10. ajross+dM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 16:36:57
>>weathe+Fj1
Then we'll deal with that "at some point" I guess? Again, Israel is a bad guy too. It's all bad guys. All options suck. So pick the one with less death and just shuffle along until some unknown event in the far future acts to break the stalemate and produce a peaceful region (or, more realistically, acts to break the equilibrium and we get a genuine demographic disaster that returns the area to a "single ethnicity" state, which sucks even more, but may be unavoidable).

Tough love: Israel can't expect to continue to act as it has in the decades since the fall of the PA. It ultimately depends on international support and that support will eventually run out, c.f. the linked article. It won't happen soon, or all at once, but it will happen and there needs to be a plan for regional coexistence, and as you'd surely agree there really isn't one beyond an imagined (and largely impossible) total military victory.

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11. LegitS+q92[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-27 18:38:37
>>slowtu+KP
>If there's a command center under a hospital, then you don't bomb the hospital.

Thats not what the geneva convention says.

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