zlacker

How does history prove any such thing? That's neither how history or proof work. Most of the wars that have been resolved to everyone's benefit have done so by the unconditional surrender of the aggressors, followed by amicable reconstruction.

>>noqc+(OP)
> How does history prove any such thing?

Because there are Jews living in Germany nowadays?

>>shakow+L2
... after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years. Only after that came the diplomatic efforts.

>>shakow+L2
Are there Jews in Germany today because of diplomacy? Or because those who tried annihilating and enslaving most German Jews were removed from power by force?

>>shakow+L2
After Germany surrendered unconditionally and was amicably reconstructed.

>>sgift+56
> after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years

Well, looks like that box is checked for Gaza; can we jump to diplomacy now?

>>noqc+(OP)
Who is the aggressor here?

>>shakow+Og
Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance.

We should try diplomacy all the time, but right now the offer of Israel is unconditional surrender or continuation of hostilities. Maybe - maybe - less atrocious to civilians than what it was during March 1945 in Germany. Diplomats will keep their work; of course everybody's abilities are limited.

>>Ozzie_+Ho
Hamas on Oct 7th

>>gaffer+Lv
Many people would disagree if you look at the history starting from the Nakba.

>>noqc+(OP)
It provides examples that it happened and thus proves it's possible.

>>Ozzie_+0w
The Nakba, you mean when all neighboring Arab countries said "hey Palestinians, step out of the way, we'll kill the Jews real quick and then you can have all the land"?

And then lost the war they've started?

Yes, that's a catastrophe for Arabs, just like losing WW2 was a catastrophe for certain Germans. And also for those in Germany who were exiled from their (sometimes extensive) land, no matter what they thought of the war and its outcome.

Eastern Prussian didn't then go and tried to kill the Western German president when the FRG took them in, though. Besides some whining by a few select bunch, that chapter is closed.

Not so for the Arabs for whom the "Nakba" was and is that the military campaign failed and not that Palestinians now live in misery.

>>pgeorg+oj2
Not at all.

"During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted and about 400 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated;[3] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jewish residents and given new Hebrew names. Approximately 750,000[4] Palestinian Arabs (about half of Palestine's Arab population) fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:~:text=During%20the%2....

>>Ozzie_+cn2
This did happen and I don't think there's a lot of prevarication to be done about how bad it was, but if we're talking about it as a way of imputing original sin to the citizens of Israel, it's worth keeping in mind that most of them are descendants of Arab Jewish people who were counter-Nakba'd --- chased from their homes across the Middle East and North Africa by pogroms.

I get why you'd respond to the previous comment, though, which reads as if it's an attempt to deny the events of the Palestinian Nakba. You're right to do that. All I'm here to say is that the 20th century history of that region is complicated and no simple narrative will get anybody to where we are today.

>>tptace+eo2
In many ways I agree with you. I'm not promoting any original sin.I'm simply responding the narrative that "Hamas started all this on October 7th, so as conclusion, all of what Israel is doing is justified."

>>Ozzie_+Sp2
Sure. It's easy to accept both arguments though: Hamas must be destroyed, but no matter how diabolical Hamas' tactics are, you still can't fight them primarily through an air war that kills tens of thousands of innocent Gazans.

Either way, my only stake in this little subthread is to stick up for the complexity of the history of the region, which both sides of the argument have a tendency to flatten to the point of unrecognizability.

>>locall+bV
I'm not convinced by the examples that you have listed (a conspicuously empty list at that), and examples are only evidence by analogy anyway. The reactivity of hydrogen is not proof of the reactivity of helium.

>>noqc+IH2
The list is empty if you haven't read what I originally posted and linked. Obviously you haven't. Politics is neither chemistry nor physics, it is what is referred to as the art of the impossible. Many nasty situations in the past seemed impossible to solve diplomatically, but it was made possible. No matter how bleak it might have looked. Again, refer to the link I posted that kicked off this discussion.

>>locall+SV2
I assure you that I read the tweet, and the list remains utterly null.

In a broader sense, I don't fault you for looking at war and thinking, or rather hoping, that in a just world, this wouldn't be the solution to any problem.

It is unsettled whether or not humanity can create such a just world, but we certainly haven't done it yet. Requiring the unconditional surrender of Hamas through force is very much a reasonable and acceptable way forward.

>>pgeorg+oj2
You can’t really describe the events like this and leave out the massacres and the number of refugees storming into neighboring countries as a result. This kind of narrative would have Britain start World War 2 as we can easily omit all the Nazi atrocities and powergrabs in Czechia and Poland, just like we can omit the atrocities and land grabs committed by Zionists prior to the Arab invasion.

>>noqc+S63
"And that's the cunning of history; when you're at the bottom, something can happen that gives hope. After the 1973 war, who would have thought that before the end of the decade, Egypt would sign a peace treaty with Israel?"

so at least the list is obviously > 0. That's a good starting point for you to reconsider where else you've made a mistake.

>>avmich+Nr
> Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance.

That's a misqualification; Germany offered resistance up to the last day, Berlin didn't fall without a fight.

>>locall+Fr3
Alliances are not the same as peace. Egypt's tepid alliance with Israel has also served to anger the rest of the islamic world, and Gaza in particular is much more isolated as a result. This is one of those apples to oranges comparisons that you assured me weren't relevant.