zlacker

[parent] [thread] 21 comments
1. fghoro+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-22 20:20:40
Respectfully, I disagree with the OP.

I'm using a router distribution -- no names please -- where the firmware build process is so intricate that their documented way to build LTS .iso images is via a docker based system. I've had very little luck (until recently) in getting that to actually work.

They provide nightly .iso images, but charge an arm-and-a-leg for the LTS images.

I've tried to use their nightlies, but they were subject to considerable churn in the last few months. That resulted in broken firewalls/routers.

I will NOT trust my firewalls to that, sorry.

In their defense, they _do_ have a way for "community members" (i.e. folks unwilling to pay $1000s/year for a stable build) to gain access to the LTS images. However the bar they have set to gain access is so high that my filing a bug they graded as "high priority" and then tracking down and verifying the workaround for a release candidate didn't qualify me to access the images.

I agree there is a gray area, and that the core developers deserve to be paid. I am actually willing to pay them for their software, but not $1000s/year.

In my honest opinion, they have crossed a line.

(Edited: changed "fix" to "workaround" above.)

replies(7): >>rezona+u >>notfri+i6 >>yjftsj+is >>poulsb+at >>Aloha+tv >>kelnos+ky >>seba_d+wf2
2. rezona+u[view] [source] 2024-01-22 20:23:41
>>fghoro+(OP)
Sounds like their intricate build process is in service of their business model. Pretty crappy thing to do.
replies(1): >>inemes+H52
3. notfri+i6[view] [source] 2024-01-22 20:50:55
>>fghoro+(OP)
Why no names? I am curious to see the product and how they are positioning their business model. I haven't seen something like this before.
replies(2): >>fghoro+Y6 >>KAMSPi+0a
◧◩
4. fghoro+Y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 20:54:21
>>notfri+i6
It's one of the (several) forks of Vyatta...
◧◩
5. KAMSPi+0a[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 21:09:45
>>notfri+i6
Sounds exactly like VyOS, and GP said it is a fork of Vyatta, which fits the bill.

I've not used VyOS in recent years, but their pricing structure does seem designed to convert users to customers.

replies(1): >>fghoro+ie
◧◩◪
6. fghoro+ie[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 21:31:12
>>KAMSPi+0a
Yep. Got it in one...
replies(1): >>jeroen+qw
7. yjftsj+is[view] [source] 2024-01-22 22:47:21
>>fghoro+(OP)
I'm not sure that I'm hearing the disagreement. You want stable binaries without paying anything, which I understand but that's not an open source thing. The only way I could see it being an open source issue is if the build steps they provide to the community are different than what they actually like internally, and even then you're really hedging on a particular definition of the preferred form for modification clause that I think the GPL has.
8. poulsb+at[view] [source] 2024-01-22 22:51:12
>>fghoro+(OP)
So for the uninformed (ie: me), what’s so great about this router distribution relative to other options that you are willing to jump through so many hoops to use it?
replies(1): >>fghoro+7v
◧◩
9. fghoro+7v[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:01:21
>>poulsb+at
I am asking myself the exact same question. So far, I don't have a good answer.
10. Aloha+tv[view] [source] 2024-01-22 23:03:15
>>fghoro+(OP)
I think your post makes a good point - the answer is, "it depends":

If your build process is so bespoke/complex (or can only be produced with licensed, hard to obtain software) and there is no way for a layman (meaning someone not well versed) in the specific technologies involved to produce a binary, then maybe it does require providing compiled software.

On the other hand, if anyone with say, a suitable host could download the software, and produce working binaries with a minimal time and knowledge investment, then maybe not.

◧◩◪◨
11. jeroen+qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:09:02
>>fghoro+ie
I've never used VyOS but I was wondering what the problem would be. This is what I did to build a .iso (I have no idea if it works or not, I don't have the hardware to test it on), courtesy of their manual https://docs.vyos.io/en/latest/contributing/build-vyos.html:

    $ git clone -b sagitta --single-branch https://github.com/vyos/vyos-build
    $ cd vyos-build
    $ docker run --rm -it --privileged -v $(pwd):/vyos -w /vyos vyos/vyos-build:sagitta bash
    [docker] $ sudo make clean
    [docker] $ sudo ./build-vyos-image iso --architecture amd64 --build-by "j.randomhacker@vyos.io"
This caused an error message, which I solved using the first result on Google:

    [docker] $ sudo mount -i -o remount,exec,dev /vyos
    [docker] $ sudo ./build-vyos-image iso --architecture amd64 --build-by "j.randomhacker@vyos.io"
    [docker] $ exit
    $ ls -l build/*.iso
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 502267904 jan 22 23:55 build/live-image-amd64.hybrid.iso
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 502267904 jan 23 00:04 build/vyos-1.4-rolling-202401222255-amd64.iso
I picked 1.4 because that seems to be the latest LTS branch. Now, I'm not sure why it apt updated twenty times during the process, but after waiting a few minutes, I was left with what seems like a perfectly fine .ISO.

Is this harder than downloading an .ISO from a website? Yes, of course. Do I expect everyone to be able to follow the manual? Probably not. But that's why there are ways to pay VyOS, this is a company doing open source after all.

If you can spare some server capacity and are willing to put in effort, you could set up a script to run the build process automatically and host the ISO files for everyone to download, as long as you remove all the trademarked branding of course.

replies(1): >>KAMSPi+ar1
12. kelnos+ky[view] [source] 2024-01-22 23:21:21
>>fghoro+(OP)
You are not paying, so you are entitled to absolutely nothing from them.

You're not entitled to builds. You're not entitled to an easy build process. You're not entitled to access to a special LTS branch.

While I agree that it's annoying when an open source project is difficult to build, that's an opportunity for an interested contributor to step in and try to make it better. Not an opportunity for you to whine about it.

There is no "gray area". Consider if this was a proprietary product: you'd get literally nothing without paying, and even if you paid, you'd probably just get a firmware binary, with no access to the source.

You sound like an entitled person who thinks other people should make your life easier and give you stuff, without compensation. I suggest you adjust your expectations and stop assuming people should and will do free labor for you.

As an aside, I'm not surprised the build process is complicated: this isn't building a single library or binary, it's building an entire OS distribution. I'm sure the entirety of Debian or OpenWRT is difficult to build as well.

Edit: This bit just really got to me:

> I will NOT trust my firewalls to that, sorry.

Then pay! This idea that your firewalls deserve to be safe and secure and maintainable just because you want them to be, but are apparently not willing to pay for the software to make it so... do you seriously not see how ridiculous that is?

If you're unhappy with how this particular vendor gives away its free stuff, and don't want to pay for the product that you really want, find another vendor. If none exist that you're happy with, that is not the problem of any of these project maintainers. It's yours, and you get to solve it by writing code on your own, or by paying someone else to do it for you. You're not entitled to anything!

replies(2): >>torste+FA >>fghoro+eG
◧◩
13. torste+FA[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:38:14
>>kelnos+ky
Nothing says "free as in speech" like being told there is no "opportunity for you to whine about it."
replies(1): >>kelnos+bB
◧◩◪
14. kelnos+bB[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:41:19
>>torste+FA
Oh, people absolutely free to whine about it, I suppose, but I'm also free to tell them they're being entitled jerks. I just wish overall that people wouldn't act like entitled jerks, and then the whole problem would go away. A wish that's unlikely to be fulfilled, but hey, I can dream.

Regardless, the whole "free as in speech" (vs. "free as in beer") thing isn't saying that the code is like speech. It was just a way for the FSF to distinguish between the two confusing (in this context, at least) English meanings of the word "free".

replies(1): >>torste+0C
◧◩◪◨
15. torste+0C[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:47:58
>>kelnos+bB
Do you work on Gnome, by chance?
replies(1): >>kelnos+vC
◧◩◪◨⬒
16. kelnos+vC[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-22 23:50:35
>>torste+0C
Funny you mention that. No, I don't, but I'd often been unhappy with how GNOME was developed, and worked in general. Instead of whining, I stopped using GNOME, and started contributing to a different desktop environment. Our stuff has its faults, too, and none of us have enough of the time we'd like to spend working on it, but we do the best we can with the time that we have and the effort we're willing to put into it.

Not saying everyone has the skills or time or even desire to contribute regularly to an open source project. And that's fine! But that doesn't mean whining about (what you see as) a project's deficiencies is ever cool.

(Note that I'm fine with people writing up constructive criticism. But just stuff like "this project doesn't provide release builds unless I pay and that's not fair" is just entitled nonsense.)

◧◩
17. fghoro+eG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-23 00:12:43
>>kelnos+ky
Hit a nerve, did I?

Hoo boy, do I miss the days of the usenet killfile.

◧◩◪◨⬒
18. KAMSPi+ar1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-23 07:02:48
>>jeroen+qw
I agree that it seems pretty reasonable (I've never built an ISO myself, however). And they do have programs for nonprofits, etc. I believe.

Similar model to Xen Orchestra, as I understand it. (Which is another product I've never used myself, coincidentally.)

◧◩
19. inemes+H52[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-23 13:15:42
>>rezona+u
How so? Open source means customers get source. You're not customer so why would you get the product itself( the product isn't the source)
replies(1): >>rezona+kA3
20. seba_d+wf2[view] [source] 2024-01-23 14:14:35
>>fghoro+(OP)
I have never heard about the project you're referring to, but judging from your post and the build instructions posted here in replies, it's you who crossed the line. How can one behave so entitled and write about it publicly without feeling ashamed about it?
◧◩◪
21. rezona+kA3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-23 19:43:56
>>inemes+H52
That's not what open source itself means, no. Open source means everyone gets source, not only customers.

What you are referring to is often labelled shared source. For instance, Microsoft offers the Windows source code to some customers for reference purposes, but that source is not allowed to be built or distributed.

It's fine to build a business model around your open source project. It's fine to charge for builds as your business model.

What is not fine is purposefully obfuscating the process needed to build that open source software to encourage users to just pay for the builds. That's shady and counter to the spirit of open source.

replies(1): >>inemes+CO3
◧◩◪◨
22. inemes+CO3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-23 20:46:58
>>rezona+kA3
I'm probably mixing this up with free software somehow.
[go to top]