zlacker

[parent] [thread] 9 comments
1. gavinh+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-12-28 03:28:57
All of what you said is true.

That is why I want the industry to self-regulate with professional licensure first.

If we let politicians do it, they'll do it wrong. If we do it first, and push hard to have politicians adopt our system when they've decided that regulation will happen, then we have a chance that it won't be awful.

As for consultants, yes, that could be a problem. However, I think professional licensure would minimize that because requiring a Professional Software Engineer (PSWE) on a project means having someone there for the long term, dedicated to the project, which is antithetical to consultants game plan to run either short projects or many projects at once.

As for Big Tech monopolists, yes that could be a problem. However, I think professional licensure, with a Code of Ethics, would actually give the PSWE at such companies the ability to say no to such monopolization. And they would, if we could actually threaten loss of license.

So you are correct that my proposal isn't perfect, but I do think it minimizes the risk of bad things happening among the others.

replies(4): >>Ekaros+O1 >>kaashi+Z2 >>api+Fl >>127361+Dx2
2. Ekaros+O1[view] [source] 2023-12-28 03:44:12
>>gavinh+(OP)
My problem with self-regulation is that time for that was 10 years ago. Maybe 20 is too much, but certainly over a decade ago... The industry had their change, they fully squandered it. Now it is time for the whip.
replies(1): >>gavinh+a2
◧◩
3. gavinh+a2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 03:47:47
>>Ekaros+O1
And I'm afraid I agree with you.

I just hope it doesn't destroy the nice things.

If it does, well, this is why we can't have nice things.

4. kaashi+Z2[view] [source] 2023-12-28 03:56:33
>>gavinh+(OP)
As with anything, professional licensure can make things better or worse.

What tends to happen with professional licensing is that barriers to entry are erected, reducing the supply of labour and artificially increasing the price of labour for existing software engineers.

See cosmetology licenses for example: it is ludicrous that it is illegal to shampoo someone's hair in New York without completing a 1,000 hour course of study or having 5 years (!!!) of experience [1]. Yeah, sure, you shouldn't be spreading diseases or anything, but this is far, far beyond that.

A less ridiculous example: doctors. In the US, there is a hilariously restrictive number of residency places available, and this number is set by the government and backed by the American Medical Association. This inflates doctors' wages and makes it much harder to become a doctor than is necessary. There's a strong case for licensing doctors, but the particular way it's done in the US is obviously suboptimal.

My point is that yes, politicians writing regulations wrong will hurt the industry, but strangling the industry by limiting the number of software engineers can also cause harm.

I believe you know this already ("my proposal isn't perfect") so don't take this as an argument, I'm just making the possible downsides explicit and adding some detail.

[1]: https://dos.ny.gov/cosmetology

replies(1): >>gavinh+w3
◧◩
5. gavinh+w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 04:00:49
>>kaashi+Z2
> I believe you know this already ("my proposal isn't perfect") so don't take this as an argument...

Yes, I do, and I agree. This could go horribly wrong.

6. api+Fl[view] [source] 2023-12-28 07:37:36
>>gavinh+(OP)
Some of the best developers I know are self taught. Professional licensure makes it illegal for them to practice, or at least relegates them to low end work. It further cements the requirement that someone go deeply into debt to purchase the right to work from a university.

It also creates artificial scarcity which will easily 10X costs.

Dealing with security problems is much cheaper.

replies(2): >>patrak+7U >>gavinh+m51
◧◩
7. patrak+7U[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 13:16:42
>>api+Fl
It also makes hiring foreign talent (where such certifications do not exist) impossible.
◧◩
8. gavinh+m51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-28 14:37:14
>>api+Fl
Not every developer needs the certification under my plan. And getting it is an apprenticeship, not education.
replies(1): >>api+7O5
9. 127361+Dx2[view] [source] 2023-12-28 22:19:48
>>gavinh+(OP)
For non safety critical software, this would be absolutely unacceptable to me. We don't want any more gatekeepers who get to control who can participate or not in the industry.

Such gatekeeping almost always ends up preventing new innovative entrants from coming in. It protects those who have the certification from competition. Thus leading to stagnation in the industry.

◧◩◪
10. api+7O5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-30 01:09:33
>>gavinh+m51
In practice you’ll get a certification mill industry that charges lots of money to certify you. Whether it’s inside or outside universities, it will be pay to play. Developers will spend the first N years of their career paying for their taxi medallion.

If you can’t tell I am deeply and profoundly cynical of systems like this. They always turn into rent extraction schemes for bureaucrats, consultants, etc.

[go to top]