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1. mastrs+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:16:11
Why is America so fixated on Israel? Groups like AIPAC and the Israeli lobby seem to be steering U.S. policies in ways that don't necessarily benefit the U.S., while potentially harming its interests. Here's what's at stake:

This alliance seems to be turning about two billion people and dozens of muslim-majority nations against America, driving them towards alliances with countries like China. American taxpayer money is being heavily invested in Israel. We're talking about a staggering $260 billion given to Israel, seemingly without direct benefits to the U.S. Ethically, the U.S. is on shaky ground. By consistently supporting Israel, even in cases involving civilian casualties, the U.S. appears to be undermining international law and the United Nations, often standing alone against global consensus. Looking at the U.S. presidency, it seems like candidates from both major parties have to win the favor of the Israeli lobby to secure their nomination. Take Obama, for example. Despite his apparent disdain for Netanyahu – remember the leaked conversation with Sarkozy where they called Netanyahu a liar? – he still seemed unable to counter the lobby's influence. This focus on Israel is a massive distraction from more pressing issues, like the rise of China.

And let's be clear – Israel's loyalty as a Western ally is questionable. It's kept friendly ties with the Kremlin, hasn't joined in sanctioning Russia, and has turned down requests to send defensive weapons to Ukraine. It seems Israel would not hesitate to shift its allegiance to China if it suited its national interests.

replies(9): >>mikete+o6 >>pauldd+S6 >>skitou+mc >>snird+Di >>r00fus+sm >>TheCap+3n >>slibhb+JH >>matteo+6O >>MaxHop+UR
2. mikete+o6[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:48:30
>>mastrs+(OP)
It's realpolitik. It's not about Israel. It's about Russia and Iran. To a lesser extent it's also about the Suez.

It also doesn't hurt that any aid, is defense spending in the US which is a stimulus for jobs or manufacturing for defense.

Overall it's cheap expenditure for the US.

replies(1): >>bhoust+6q
3. pauldd+S6[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:51:04
>>mastrs+(OP)
> Why is America so fixated on Israel?

1. It's a Western-style democracy in an Eastern anti-democratic location.

2. It doesn't hurt that there have been plenty of ethnic Jews in foreign policy positions.

3. The military industrial complex doesn't see costs as costs.

4. skitou+mc[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:19:30
>>mastrs+(OP)
There is little ethics in politics and geopolitics.

In US politics there are the Jews, the pro-Israel Lobby, and also part of the Evangelical Christian who strongly support Israel for religious reason (while sometime being a bit antisemitic). More generally American people strongly support Israel - even if some are criticizing decision made by Israel. Electorally all that is important.

Election aside, everybody have his own interest, but for many decade Israel had been a solid ally of the USA in the middle East - which is/was a key region. And the coming decades it is hard to see how it can change as both have interest to work with each other

Muslims that are unhappy with the current situation with Israel, were probably not huge fan of the USA and Israel in the first place... This did not prevent leaders of many Muslim countries to work closely with the USA and growingly more with Israel : national interest first. Of course the current event increase the pressure of the street over their leader to not work with Israel on the short term...

If USA were dropping big time a key ally in a key situation for this ally, this would send a very very bad signal to all allies. But we see that Biden is much more critical about Israel than USA used to be. While still being an ally.

5. snird+Di[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:48:25
>>mastrs+(OP)
About the last part - Israel is not friendly to the Kremlin. It merely doesn't actively attack due to the Kremlin control of Syria.

If Israel goes against Russia, then Russia will prevent Israel attacks that prevent Irans control of Syria and Lebanon.

life is way more complicated than you presented it

6. r00fus+sm[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:15:44
>>mastrs+(OP)
It happens because there is a $3B annual funding of Israel (which doesn't require a vote!!) which is for weapons-only - consequently most of the funding comes back into the US through defense contractors and lobbying groups like AIPAC. (typical client-state kind of setup which is described more thoroughly in Confessions of an Economic Hitman - freely available on the internet)

These lobbies then reach out to every lever of power and funds Israel friendly politicians (and even ones who are opposed to what Israel does - to neutralize their opposition - google "AIPAC AOC"). These offers of help (carrots) come with threats to primary the politician (sticks) if that politician goes against AIPAC's policies.

The only difference for Israel vs. other client states like Egypt, Japan, etc is the lack of vote required to keep funding going to Israel.

replies(1): >>skissa+hY
7. TheCap+3n[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:20:55
>>mastrs+(OP)
Don’t forget about stretching the American military thin against China (our real political foe) and the fact Israel has illegal nukes and is willing to end humanity if they ever lose their homeland.
replies(3): >>xenosp+9B >>infamo+2R >>adastr+4h1
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8. bhoust+6q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 00:41:51
>>mikete+o6
> It's realpolitik. It's not about Israel

It is not at all. This funding is only occurring because of AIPAC and similar organizations including Christian groups who want to see the end times happen and supporting Israel is apparently important for that. Israel is not a counter balance to Russia at all. And Israel (specifically Netanyahu and AIPAC) undermined the Iran agreement that was going to see them stop their nuclear program.

replies(1): >>wayfin+Xy
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9. wayfin+Xy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 01:50:09
>>bhoust+6q
No, if you read history, Israel had done a ton of stuff to make Europe and America happy.

They invaded the Suez Canal when Egypt tried to nationalize it. They did it for France and Britain.

During the Cold War, they provided of information to the US govt about Soviet assets. They also tell the US information about other countries from their intelligence.

The fact of the matter is Israel’s neighbors hate Israel so they need to get support from whoever they can, so they try to appease Europe and America. America goes along with it because it works out for us. Israel also also economically and technologically in a better spot than a lot of other Middle Eastern countries which are already semi-hostile to America, so they’re one of the better allies to have in that region.

America doesn’t give a damn about Israel anymore than France. It’s the working relationship that keeps it going — for both parties.

The problem right now is that both Israel and Palestine are both run by extreme right wingers. Extremist right wingers are always trying to start wars.

However, US foreign policy generally prefers having a working relationship than caring if a country is democratic or ticking the “is good” boxes. Most countries in the world make terrible allies. They’re weak, or they’re unstable, or every 30 years, their system of government will have completely changed. Despite the shit Israel does, they are consistent and stable, two traits many countries have not figured out.

replies(1): >>infamo+BP
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10. xenosp+9B[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 02:06:10
>>TheCap+3n
What’s an illegal Nuke?
replies(1): >>cma+WX
11. slibhb+JH[view] [source] 2023-12-09 02:59:27
>>mastrs+(OP)
It's not just America. Everyone is fixated on the Jews (for or against). There's plenty of ethno-religious conflicts all around the world but the world only cares about one of them.

Also, "lobbying" is a boogeyman here. Americans support Israel for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with lobbying. Israel is a settler society, it's a country of immigrants, much like the US. Israel has a rule of law, it's a democracy, much like the US. Israel has long existed within a sea of hostile Arab nations, none of which are democracies (okay minus Lebanon, kind of) and none which particularly resemble of the US. People are starting to look at the Israelis as bullies today but for most of the 20th century, they were viewed as the underdog. And finally there's a religious element: Americans are fairly Christian and feel a fellowship with Jews and view Israel as a custodian of the Holy Land. As a result of these factors and more, there's a strong affinity between Americans and Israel.

replies(1): >>Gibbon+LV
12. matteo+6O[view] [source] 2023-12-09 04:06:46
>>mastrs+(OP)
Lobbying is good for the lawmakers, not the citizens. If you're a politician being offered a nice fat check to pass a pro-Israeli bill that's bad for America, and you know that the voters won't care if you vote for it, you're probably going to do it. The citizens themselves either don't know or don't care because the Israeli lobby does a lot of PR to make Israel and pro-Israel politicians look good.
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13. infamo+BP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:24:03
>>wayfin+Xy
> The fact of the matter is Israel’s neighbors hate Israel

If we're going to be discussing facts, I think we should be fair to all sides, not just a minority.

The fact of the matter is those people decided to pick up everything and move into a region that already had people living there, and with neighbors that didn't like it then, nor now.

What's that meme where someone is riding a bike and puts a pipe in the spokes just to blame someone else called?

replies(1): >>wayfin+6m1
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14. infamo+2R[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:38:32
>>TheCap+3n
At the level of nation-states, there is an anarchistic relationship between one another. There's no real concept of legality at an international level when you peel away all the bureaucratic nonsense. John J. Mearsheimer touches on this briefly in his interview with Lex Fridman: https://youtu.be/r4wLXNydzeY

The permanent members of the UN's Security Council do not abide by laws they force other members to abide by. This is because there really are great powers in the world, which, despite being difficult for people in the West to understand, is very obvious in the rest of the world.

15. MaxHop+UR[view] [source] 2023-12-09 04:49:52
>>mastrs+(OP)
Some good responses here.

I’ll also add that despite only being 2% of US population 4/10 of richest Americans are Jews and they dominate both finance and media, two very influential industries. Their outsized representation/power/influence biases American popular opinion and foreign policy in favor of Israel.

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16. Gibbon+LV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 05:36:22
>>slibhb+JH
The people whining about the Israeli-Gaza war sure don't care about Boko Haram killing 300,000 children in the last dozen years.
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17. cma+WX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 06:00:46
>>xenosp+9B
He might have been thinking of how aid to Israel in the US is illegal under a law which prohibits aid to nuclear states that aren't party to the non-proliferation treaty.
replies(1): >>adastr+Yg1
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18. skissa+hY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 06:03:41
>>r00fus+sm
> It happens because there is a $3B annual funding of Israel (which doesn't require a vote!!) which is for weapons-only - consequently most of the funding comes back into the US through defense contractors and lobbying groups like AIPAC

I remember reading a column in an English-language Israeli newspaper (probably Haaretz) – sorry I can't find it now – arguing that US defence funding actually hurt Israel. It isn't that much money in the grand scheme of things (around 0.6% of Israel's GDP) – from a purely financial perspective, Israel could survive fine without it. It comes with all these strings attached, which are basically designed to keep the IDF dependent on the US defense industry, and discourage Israel from developing indigenous replacements for various US military technologies. The greater reliance on US technology, instead of indigenous Israeli replacements, holds back Israel's defense industry, causes Israel to lose out on defense export opportunities (you can't export military technologies you haven't developed), reduces Israel's national sovereignty, and gives the US leverage to use to control the Israeli government (if the US doesn't like some Israeli plan, it will send behind-closed-door threats to delay military supplies that the IDF is dependent upon.) It also sustains a talking point which opponents of Israel can reliably call upon.

The column said that the defenders of this arrangement within the Israeli establishment concede that many of these drawbacks are real, but argue that they are outweighed by the arrangement's biggest benefit – it sends a signal to neighbouring countries that "the US has Israel's back".

> The only difference for Israel vs. other client states like Egypt, Japan, etc is the lack of vote required to keep funding going to Israel.

I think there is another big difference – many Americans (both Jewish and Christian) have an emotional attachment to the US alliance with Israel, which transcends whatever its practical benefits might be; far fewer Americans feel that way about the US alliance with Egypt or Japan.

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19. adastr+Yg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 09:38:08
>>cma+WX
How does the US give aid to Pakistan then?
replies(1): >>cma+jv5
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20. adastr+4h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 09:38:42
>>TheCap+3n
Israel has no capability to "end humanity" with their nukes. Only the USA and Russia have that many nukes.
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21. wayfin+6m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 10:28:39
>>infamo+BP
Hmm I think you’re skipping some major parts of world history.

Jewish immigration to Palestine was not particularly great. Jewish people were not really heavily trying to move to the Middle East where people didn’t like them.

What happened is that Great Britain, following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and the division of that region between itself and France, decided to make the Israel state, make it official through the League of Nations, and then encourage Jewish people to move there. It was the ultimate solution to the several century old “Jewish Question” that Europeans had. Of course people started moving to a territory controlled and sanctioned by none other but the British Empire.

By sending them to the Middle East, Europe could get rid of the Jews and Britian can get an ally. Win win for Europe. Jews, Palestinians, Arabs and everyone else be damned.

Of course, after hell obviously broke loose, Britain realized that their mandate was not working and they pulled out of a problem that they created.

…And nooowww we’re here.

replies(1): >>mastrs+lA2
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22. mastrs+lA2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 19:53:48
>>wayfin+6m1
There are several factual inaccuracies in your account.

Historically, Jews faced widespread animosity in Europe. The Roman Empire's destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD is a notable early example. Jews were wrongly blamed for the Black Death, leading to widespread pogroms and massacres. During the Crusades, particularly the capture of Jerusalem, both Jews and Muslims were massacred. In 1492, the Spanish Inquisition resulted in the expulsion of Jews from Spain, which had one of the most significant Jewish communities in Europe. Many of these expelled Jews found refuge in Palestine. The history of Jewish persecution also includes severe instances in Russia and Poland, and the situation in Germany is widely known.

By the 1900s, Jews and Palestinians were coexisting relatively peacefully in the region now known as Israel and the Palestinian territories, even though Jews constituted only about 3% of the population. However, relations began to deteriorate with the onset of mass Jewish migration, which saw the Jewish population in Palestine increase to 30% within a few decades. Tensions escalated dramatically following the British decision to allocate over half of Palestinian land to this minority population.

It is also misleading to suggest that there wasn't a significant effort by Jewish people to relocate to the Middle East. The choice of Palestine was intrinsically linked to Jewish historical, religious, and cultural identity. For the Zionist leadership, any location other than Jerusalem was unacceptable.

In essence, this was a chiefly European problem outsourced to the Middle East.

replies(1): >>wayfin+zk3
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23. wayfin+zk3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 01:38:02
>>mastrs+lA2
I don’t see how anything you said contradicts anything I said, which was just a more general summary.

And there is a significant effort by a lot of people to split California into two or more two states but it’s all talk.

The Jewish relocation happened because of the British Empire.

replies(1): >>infamo+ir3
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24. infamo+ir3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 02:52:39
>>wayfin+zk3
Discussing the historical context is important, but what's happening now matters even more.

And what's happening now that I think you might be missing is the complete and total subjugation of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government despite it being universally condemned by 95%+ of the Earth.

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25. cma+jv5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 00:49:05
>>adastr+Yg1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symington_Amendment#Legal_issu...

There are waivers allowed from the executive branch and I believe Pakistan got one after 9/11 with some antiterrorism benchmarks (conditional aid).

As I understand it the US doesn't acknowledge Israel is nuclear armed and so doesn't give them a waiver congruent with the law.

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