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1. bradle+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-18 13:07:44
This is a problem in the tech industry but not on Wall Street.

The norm there is paid time off between jobs (“gardening leave”). Everyone knows it is part of the system and that a mid level or senior hire can’t start right away. They also buy out still vesting bonuses and the like.

It’s quite a civilized system and I think the law ought to leave it alone, while addressing abusive ones like we have in tech.

replies(7): >>apppli+i4 >>Spivak+p4 >>Spooky+a7 >>silver+md >>sgift+de >>thsksb+Oe >>karate+eg
2. apppli+i4[view] [source] 2023-11-18 13:32:07
>>bradle+(OP)
Where do you see this issue in tech? Certainly not CA.
replies(2): >>bradle+d5 >>potato+B7
3. Spivak+p4[view] [source] 2023-11-18 13:32:35
>>bradle+(OP)
Surely anyone looking at such a system from the outside sees the economic inefficiency for nebulous gain. Why not do away with it and let them start right away?
replies(1): >>bradle+28
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4. bradle+d5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:35:30
>>apppli+i4
NY, the subject of the article.
5. Spooky+a7[view] [source] 2023-11-18 13:47:41
>>bradle+(OP)
When this legislation was originally introduced, an Albany area Jimmy Johns franchisee got attention for suing former minimum wage employees who took the secrets of sandwich assembly to a nearby Subway and local deli.

Timing was poor - during the budget season when the entire legislature was in town. The notion that a sandwich stop should be allowed to restrict the future employment is absurd on its face.

Yet there are fields where it makes sense. When I was an employee of the government, ethics laws limited my ability to leave and sell my services to the government in various ways. There are similar scenarios in other industries.

replies(1): >>wslh+6c
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6. potato+B7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:50:19
>>apppli+i4
NY, WA, other tech hubs in the US that aren’t California.

That said garden leave is not all sunshine and roses like OP describes. It’s common on Wall Street but a huge part of your normal compensation is performance bonuses - and typically garden leaves only cover base salary.

A typical garden leave doesn’t come close to full income replacement for the period. But it’s better than nothing - which is the status quo in tech.

FWIW American courts also tend to frown on non competes that do not compensate for forced unemployment and have generally sided with the worker. This is (yet another) way that employers deprive employees of their rights by using the expense of litigation against them. This is also why we need regulation around this - you should not have to fight this in court to have your basic rights asserted.

replies(2): >>JJMcJ+rq >>ndrisc+AC
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7. bradle+28[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:53:22
>>Spivak+p4
If it ain’t broke, why are you trying to fix it?
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8. wslh+6c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:16:57
>>Spooky+a7
> When I was an employee of the government, ethics laws limited my ability to leave and sell my services to the government in various ways. There are similar scenarios in other industries.

I think this is more about corruption control than non-compete.

replies(1): >>Spooky+QD2
9. silver+md[view] [source] 2023-11-18 14:23:46
>>bradle+(OP)
Garden leave means you get your low base salary but not any bonus, which is the bulk of a finance income.
replies(2): >>lovich+Wg >>pandam+cD
10. sgift+de[view] [source] 2023-11-18 14:28:18
>>bradle+(OP)
> It’s quite a civilized system and I think the law ought to leave it alone, (..)

Or codify it. Imho the better alternative. One should never assume that companies won't try to change the system to the detriment of the employee if they see a chance.

replies(1): >>bradle+of
11. thsksb+Oe[view] [source] 2023-11-18 14:31:26
>>bradle+(OP)
Its a terrible system.

If we assume that the financial sector is good for society, then a productive element of it is idling causing inefficiencies leading to higher fees.

If the assumption is incorrect, then the financial sector is not a productive part of the economy. In this case the worker's vacation is irrelevant since it's just a manifestation of the parasitical nature of it.

Either way normal people are paying for this civilized system's largesse.

The truth is somewhere in between. The role of the financial sector is to match capital with projects needing capital needs. Since the 80s (?) this is an insignificantly small portion of modern finance - most of it is parasitical sloshing of funds around to either gather fees or launder money.

replies(1): >>lovich+Yh
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12. bradle+of[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:34:16
>>sgift+de
One thing I think is great about the finance industry is that the CEOs don’t pretend that humanity is split into two subspecies: executives and peons.

At other companies CEOs secure themselves giant equity packages to “retain the best talent and align shareholder interests” and then think they can motivate rank and file employees with t-shirts, “the mission,” and shoutouts during all hands.

In finance, CEOs acknowledge that everyone is there for the same reason—executives and regular employees alike. The numbers are definitely smaller but bonuses are bonuses and not employee of the month mugs.

replies(2): >>sgift+5g >>noelwe+yZ
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13. sgift+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:38:22
>>bradle+of
To be honest, I find this really refreshing in a - to me - weird way, cause at least no one lies to themselves or the other. It reminds me of what people say about Oracle, that it only has one goal: To make money. No bullshit about mission or whatever. Why are we at Oracle? To make money. The end.

Maybe if more companies and their executives were so open with what they want (and maybe I'm cynical, but imho it is the only thing at least 99% of them want) things would be better.

replies(2): >>zerbin+4p >>avar+br
14. karate+eg[view] [source] 2023-11-18 14:38:54
>>bradle+(OP)
From my perspective it sounds civilized, but a friend of mine who sat out most of quarantine on gardening leave said he found it hard to support his family. You get your base salary, but not your bonuses, which are the majority of your pay in that industry. And since you can't get another job for the duration (or he couldn't, at any rate) it got a bit tougher than I would have assumed.
replies(3): >>ghaff+it >>bee_ri+xv >>pclmul+yv
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15. lovich+Wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:43:00
>>silver+md
It doesn’t _mean_ that.

It _can_ imply that if garden leave isn’t valued by workers in the negotiation stage of a position, but that also means it could be the bottom right corner of the prisoner’s dilemma.

Luckily one of the major reasons for the government to exist is to create regulation like this to make everyone pick the top left square of the prisoner’s dilemma so we all get a better outcome

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16. lovich+Yh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:48:27
>>thsksb+Oe
Do you believe that buffers are a terrible system? Do you think that any significant piece of software could run without a buffer?

If the answer is no, then you should reconsider thinking that garden leave is bad. It’s essentially a buffer that covers the switching cost for agents needing to decide which principal they work for.

If you removed garden leave you’d have a higher up front cost for rational actors who needed to account for the fact that they could lose their income stream at any moment if they were fired

replies(1): >>thsksb+hL
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17. zerbin+4p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:34:51
>>sgift+5g
Mark Fisher had an interesting comment on this, and this is more in the context of public/privatization but the point is relevant, calling it “market stalinism”. In Stalin era Russia, bureaucrats spent enormous amounts of time compiling reports and window dressing for their project (essentially advertising its success back to the Party before it was complete). As a result, projects would be well known but mismanaged, slow, broken, etc. but the glory of USSR would definitely be upheld. I’m always reminded of this when executives get on stage and do the Steve Jobs thing about how great we are for working nights and weekends for the “mission” while only they have a vested interest in us making a profit.
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18. JJMcJ+rq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:42:52
>>potato+B7
> which is the status quo in tech

Even severance is usually not much. Typical is one week for year of service, minimum two weeks.

Given turnover in the industry, very few people are going to get 20 weeks severance.

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19. avar+br[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:47:44
>>sgift+5g
If you (or others) haven't seen it you owe it to yourself to see the "Larry Ellison lawnmower" talk: https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?si=SMpYPck-EJqe1uEv&t=35m00s
replies(1): >>sgift+5s
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20. sgift+5s[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:52:41
>>avar+br
It's where I partially got it from - but thanks for the link. The whole conversation just reminded me of it.
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21. ghaff+it[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:58:55
>>karate+eg
Gardening leave--especially if it's not even 100% base salary--isn't really a great answer especially to the degree that it normalizes non-competes. For a young unattached person who will use it to travel the world for a year on the cheap? Maybe. But others might be looking at easily a 50% total compensation cut and a year+ hole in mid-career employment. For most people, it's not a simple matter of "Great, I'll spend a year building a startup!"
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22. bee_ri+xv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:12:06
>>karate+eg
The first thing somebody in this sort of job should do is establish a 1-2 year savings buffer, right?
replies(1): >>CSMast+qw
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23. pclmul+yv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:12:12
>>karate+eg
The signing bonus from your next job should make up for the loss of pay during garden leave. Many finance companies are willing to hire 12-18 months in advance if you are filling a real need.
replies(1): >>bradle+4z
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24. CSMast+qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:16:45
>>bee_ri+xv
Yes that's basically what everyone does.
replies(1): >>SpaceN+Hz
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25. bradle+4z[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:32:04
>>pclmul+yv
This is true of all the situations I’m familiar with. I wonder if the other posters are talking about a different part of finance.
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26. SpaceN+Hz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:36:11
>>CSMast+qw
No, it's what everyone should do.
replies(1): >>ghaff+IP
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27. ndrisc+AC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:50:34
>>potato+B7
At least in software, my base salary is ~2/3 my comp right now (ignoring stock growth). If I could take say 50% base (so ~33% total) to quit working for 6 months - 1 year, you bet I'd take that deal. Put me on garden leave for as long as you want.
replies(1): >>ghaff+FJ
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28. pandam+cD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:54:03
>>silver+md
Do finance firms pay the awarded bonus in full or vest it over time like most other business? If latter, I imagine you'd get your previously awarded bonus, you'd just stop accumulating bonuses to be paid in the future, which makes sense since you are going to be working elsewhere at that time and the new place's sign up should make up for the bonus payment ramp up.
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29. ghaff+FJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 17:25:48
>>ndrisc+AC
How many people do you think are in a position to comfortably, even happily, take a 70% pay cut?
replies(1): >>ndrisc+461
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30. thsksb+hL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 17:33:29
>>lovich+Yh
Non-compete + garden leave = important resources siphoned off the economy [1]

Remove non-competes, then there's no need for garden leave.

If an industry insists it needs non-competes, the dept. of labor could issue exceptions with strong penalties (x3 wages (incld. expected bonuses) for the duration of the non/ -compete, etc)

[1] an argument could be made that the more workers are put on garden leave the better it is for the economy, vis a vis less folks doing damage. Overall, I think the whole fintech industry is a waste of STEM talent. Those physics PhDs could be something beneficial instead, like being a magician at three year old birthday parties.

replies(1): >>ghaff+hR
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31. ghaff+IP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 17:56:31
>>SpaceN+Hz
Yeah, I'd still argue that a MAD system where highly paid (and presumably skilled) people need to take a year or two off between jobs is pretty inefficient. But if everyone knows that's the way things work, no one can say they were unaware of the rules.
replies(1): >>CSMast+we1
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32. ghaff+hR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 18:04:31
>>thsksb+hL
>strong penalties

Sounds like a great incentive to quit the job and hang out for the duration of the non-compete. If I can make more money by working than not working, I know what I'm doing.

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33. noelwe+yZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 18:43:42
>>bradle+of
If you operate in a zero-sum game, like most trading in financial markets, there is no way you can pretend you are contributing to society. There is literally nothing else but the money that could be the goal of the organization. This does not mean that all organizations make no contribution to society. Nobody works at MSF, for example, just for the money.
replies(1): >>bradle+k51
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34. bradle+k51[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 19:18:28
>>noelwe+yZ
Sure. But a for-profit startup developing AI on a blockchain for pet social media is not MSF.

Moreover even in MSF if the CEO is being paid based on a compensation consultant’s report of the market rate “in order to attract and retain the best talent to advance our mission” well then everyone else should be paid on the same principle.

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35. ndrisc+461[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 19:21:36
>>ghaff+FJ
In fields like software or quant finance, I imagine a lot? Investopedia says that 200 salary and 500+ total is "not uncommon" for a quant, and that even entry level is 120-150. At 120k, 1/3 pay puts you at the median personal income in the US, which I'd say is a pretty sweet deal. At 200, you're close to median household at 1/3.

People in this thread are saying you "only" get your base. If they really do get full base pay of 200k, that puts them in the 94th percentile to take a forced vacation.

replies(1): >>ghaff+d81
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36. ghaff+d81[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 19:33:34
>>ndrisc+461
I don't really disagree in this specific case. Although there's also lifestyle creep--perhaps especially in the case of living in NYC.
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37. CSMast+we1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 20:12:07
>>ghaff+IP
Well the reason that this system exists is that there is real valuable knowledge that gives these companies competitive advantages. The usefulness of that knowledge drops off precipitously over time.

So the starting point for the system is that we need a way for these highly paid and skilled people to take a year or two off between jobs.

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38. Spooky+QD2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 05:07:47
>>wslh+6c
It’s really one and the same. If I’m a commercial banker, flipping to a competitor and presumably planning client relationships with forethought before the move.

It’s a form of corruption.

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