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1. 0xDEF+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-08 19:25:03
It is interesting how Iran is the only country that is, through its proxies, getting kinetic against Israel. The Iranian proxies in Yemen and Lebanon have been firing missiles at Israel for a month while the Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria are starting to assemble in Syria for what might be a land invasion of Israel.

This has given Iran an unprecedented level of popularity and credibility in the Islamic world.

How did Iran-Israel relations even get this bad to begin with?

replies(7): >>yostro+q3 >>eli_go+y3 >>anonym+r4 >>dragon+K4 >>wolver+ll >>fuzzyl+mC >>hacker+mt1
2. yostro+q3[view] [source] 2023-11-08 19:39:00
>>0xDEF+(OP)
> How did Iran-Israel relations even get this bad to begin with?

There was an Islamist revolution in 1979 in Iran. The new rulers despised Israel long before attaining power. Before that the two countries had excellent relations.

3. eli_go+y3[view] [source] 2023-11-08 19:39:29
>>0xDEF+(OP)
>How did Iran-Israel relations even get this bad to begin with?

The 1979 Iranian Revolution installed the Islamic Republic and repudiated the previous government's relatively amicable diplomatic relations with Israel.

replies(1): >>Frustr+y4
4. anonym+r4[view] [source] 2023-11-08 19:44:48
>>0xDEF+(OP)
I highlighted "Iran-Israel" and searched, and one of the top links is this Al-Jazeera article: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/iran-and-israel-fro...

> Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the revolution, brought about a new worldview that predominantly championed Islam and argued for standing up to “arrogant” world powers and their regional allies, who would oppress others – including Palestinians – to serve their own interests.

> This meant that Israel became known in Iran as the “Little Satan” to the “Great Satan” that is the US.

> “To overcome both the Arab-Persian divide and the Sunni-Shia divide, Iran adopted a much more aggressive position on the Palestinian issue to brandish its leadership credentials in the Islamic world and to put Arab regimes allied with the United States on the defensive,” he said.

> The two are alleged to be behind a long series of attacks on each other’s interests within and outside their soils, which they publicly deny. This has become known as a “shadow war” that has increasingly spilt out into the open as hostilities grew.

> Tehran opposes US hegemony in the Middle East while Israel has consistently pushed back against any efforts in Washington to bring American troops home from the region. Iran-linked groups have regularly attacked US bases in Iraq and Syria.

> It’s a “rivalry for dominance and power in the region, the two states have been embroiled in a low-level war for more than a decade,” said Parsi.

replies(1): >>Apocry+j5
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5. Frustr+y4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 19:45:06
>>eli_go+y3
Ironic since this revolution was fomented by the CIA.

The CIA deposed the elected leader (people forget Iran was a secular democracy), and put in a puppet Shaw, which then the population revolted against.

So we are friendly with Israel, but only up to a point, if they get in the way, and are hit with some 'splatter', so be it.

replies(1): >>pregse+Xh
6. dragon+K4[view] [source] 2023-11-08 19:45:59
>>0xDEF+(OP)
> How did Iran-Israel relations even get this bad to begin with?

The US destroyed the regime in Iraq whose location and simultaneous hostility toward Israel and Iran was a mitigator working against the other forces driving Israel and Iran against each other, as it often gave Israel and Iran common interests.

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7. Apocry+j5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 19:48:16
>>anonym+r4
Yeah, it seems rooted in the intersection of ideology/tribalism and realpolitik. You would expect Sunni powers to head the opposition to Israel, as 99% of Palestinians are Sunni, but Saudi Arabia, the chief sponsor of Sunni militant groups, has had a long unofficial working relationship with Israel. Partly because of mutual animosity towards Iran.
replies(1): >>dragon+17
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8. dragon+17[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 19:57:36
>>Apocry+j5
> You would expect Sunni powers to head the opposition to Israel, as 99% of Palestinians are Sunni,

They did. First the UAR and Egypt as the UAR dissolved, later, after Egypt-Israel peace, Iraq took up a role. Iran started backing groups that were more extreme Islamists (though still Sunni) that opposed (and often directly fought) the main anti-Israel Palestinian groups, which ended up themselves as the main fighting groups as the peace process took the PLO off the table as a group actively fighting against Israel, and took up an even bigger role when the destruction of Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq took Iraq off the table entirely, creating both a regional power vacuum and removing the main issue focusing Iran's attention away from Israel.

replies(1): >>Apocry+Ba
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9. Apocry+Ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 20:12:29
>>dragon+17
That's fair. My oversimplified narrative elides that a lot of changes have occurred over the decades. Iran remains the head of the anti-Israel opposition because a lot of the Sunni Arab states have diminished over time and sought economic ties if not outright diplomatic ties with Israel. And Iraq falling into the Iranian sphere of influence, as you allude to, only meant that Iran's star has risen.
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10. pregse+Xh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 20:47:00
>>Frustr+y4
Who is the "we"? Israeli lobby influence appears to be steadily increasing.
replies(1): >>Frustr+pI
11. wolver+ll[view] [source] 2023-11-08 21:00:36
>>0xDEF+(OP)
In 1953 the CIA intervened in a power struggle and helped depose the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddeq, handing power to shah (essentially, 'king') Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, whose father, a military officer, took power in a coup in the 1920s.

The shah, with US backing, ran a brutal, oppressive regime until 1979, when he was overthrown by a revolution led by the Islamist, theocratic ayatollah, Ruhollah Khomeini [edit: Khomeini seems to have led one faction, which eventually seized power from the others; see below]. Khomeini's people broke into the US embassy (a major diplomatic violation - even warring parties maintain embassies) and took over 50 hostages, who they held for over a year; one demand was that the US send them Pahlavi (Egypt granted him asylum eventually).

That government still runs Iran, though via Khomeini's political decendents. They see the US as probably their greatest threat, and the US treats Iran as a major enemy. In the 1980s, the US helped Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein fight a war with Iran, including using poison gas. These days, high-ranking US leaders periodically talk of attacking Iran and the US maintains economic sanctions against the country.

Israel is the closest US ally in the region and is seen by Iran as a US proxy, and the US and its allies are seen as competitors for regional power, with the Arabian Peninsula between Iran and Isreal being a sort of battleground. Both countries routinely threaten attacks against each other. Also, to some degree, Israel is a seen by Iran as a Western colony imposed on the Middle East.

Edit: I shouldn't assume this part is known: Iran routinely attacks US interests and destabilizes the region in its drive to dominate the Middle East, and also aligns itself at times with Russia. Particularly, now that the US deposed Hussein in neighboring Iraq, Iran has strong influence there (I think they are the only two majority Shia countries in the world). They also helped Assad in Syria fight a civil war to defeat a powerful revolution, forming a very strong bond; and they have long been the major supporters of Hezbollah, the terrorist/insurgent and Shia group that controls southern Lebanon. If you look at a map, that means Iran now has a logistical route to the Israeli border - they can drive trucks there - as well as influencing a large part of the Middle East.

replies(1): >>OfSang+Em
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12. OfSang+Em[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 21:05:35
>>wolver+ll
The overthrow of the shah was not "led by Khomeini". He did not return from exile in France until the shah was already gone. The shah was overthrown by a broad coalition that included, for example, also Iran's Communists. That broad coalition was then promptly sidelined by the religious faction once Khomeini returned and took advantage of the power vacuum.
replies(1): >>wolver+6n
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13. wolver+6n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 21:07:16
>>OfSang+Em
Khomeini could lead it from France. I didn't mean that he led the charge at the machine guns.

Are you saying he had no part until he returned?

replies(1): >>OfSang+Io
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14. OfSang+Io[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 21:13:23
>>wolver+6n
Before he returned, he merely oversaw one faction among many, and should not be singled out as the one leader at that stage. Iran's post 1979 government may well have gone in a completely different direction if he had not personally returned.

People familiar with this history get frustrated by the description you give, it is simply inaccurate. It is similar to the common misconception that the Bolsheviks in Russia overthrew the tsar, when the tsar had already been deposed months before (in the February Revolution) when Lenin returned from exile and launched the October Revolution.

replies(1): >>wolver+8q
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15. wolver+8q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 21:19:32
>>OfSang+Io
What you say sounds familiar, though you might forgive a lack of detail in an online post (that was pretty detailed!).

Still, what is the particular frustration? Is it that other participants in that revolution don't want Iran and their revolution painted with a broad brush as theocratic? (And that would be a false image.)

It's a good lesson for anyone who wants to shift power structures: The ones who do the shifting often are not the ones who get the power.

16. fuzzyl+mC[view] [source] 2023-11-08 22:20:39
>>0xDEF+(OP)
> How did Iran-Israel relations even get this bad to begin with?

I know you were just posing this rhetorically, but I love the folks above that are responding as if this is something that can be answered adequately in the hacker news comment section

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17. Frustr+pI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-08 22:48:43
>>pregse+Xh
We is 'USA'. Yes, lots of lobbying, lots of support for Israel.

Until it interferes with Oil.

Then, well, if they get hurt a little, then that's just to bad. Why do we sell weapons to Saudi Arabia?

18. hacker+mt1[view] [source] 2023-11-09 04:42:34
>>0xDEF+(OP)
> Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria are starting to assemble in Syria for what might be a land invasion of Israel.

First I've heard of anything like this. How credible is the info and how likely is it to happen?

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