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1. hn_thr+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-10-04 17:14:21
The other elephant in the room is that the EU is going to start mandating user-replaceable batteries in consumer electronics, and hopefully the US follows suit or big tech just decides to do it worldwide.

I absolutely despise that Apple made non-replaceable batteries the norm, and most of us have begun to accept this as "the way things have always been". Every cell phone I had before the iPhone came out had an easily replaceable battery before we all became a slave to Ives' "Preciousssss" demands for minimalism.

Edit: Folks seem to be misunderstanding why I brought up Apple. I in no way think they are now worse than any other phone manufacturer when it comes to irreplaceable batteries. But AFAIK the iPhone was the first phone to have a glued-in battery, and that has since become the norm. They have essentially helped lead the way in convincing consumers that replacing the battery shouldn't be an easy, user-accessible operation.

replies(6): >>theshr+C9 >>Toucan+nl >>jmspri+om >>scarfa+xo >>thiht+YP1 >>winter+WY7
2. theshr+C9[view] [source] 2023-10-04 17:49:28
>>hn_thr+(OP)
How is Apple to blame for non-replaceable batteries?

It's just the easiest way to construct a "modern" phone. Stick the battery in with a 3M Command Strip style sticker and it won't move, construct phone around it.

Having to add toolless latches while keeping some kind of IP rating AND not looking like a rugged phone is a whole different thing.

replies(2): >>Raed66+sc >>hn_thr+hl
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3. Raed66+sc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:01:03
>>theshr+C9
for 1k a piece they better figure it out
replies(1): >>theshr+od
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4. theshr+od[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:04:41
>>Raed66+sc
Now tell me about the $2k Samsung Fold and how user repairable that is: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+Fold+Teardown...
replies(2): >>Raed66+Im >>hn_thr+7n
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5. hn_thr+hl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:40:19
>>theshr+C9
> How is Apple to blame for non-replaceable batteries?

How quickly we forget history. I'm not going to say they were the absolute first to do this as I'm not doing a full survey of 2007 phones, but before that (a) there was not a single phone I or my friends had that didn't have a simply replaceable battery and (b) there was a ton of conversation and press when the iPhone was first released about how unique the decision was to have a glued-in battery here.

For contrast, here are instructions for replacing the battery on the famous Nokia 3310 https://devices.vodafone.com.au/nokia/3310-2017-proprietary-....

Let's be real here: if having difficult-to-replace batteries was a money loser for Apple and other manufacturers, they would fix the situation in a heartbeat - it's not like this is a hard problem. The only reason they do this is because of desired planned obsolescence - tons of people will think "Oh, getting the battery changed is such a hassle, might as well get a new phone."

Again, essentially every consumer electronic device pre-2007 (except maybe some Mac laptops?) had easily-replaceable batteries. Convincing people that using glued-in batteries was a necessary design change, instead of a corporate decision to make more money, was a real coup for corporate marketing.

replies(1): >>theshr+oB
6. Toucan+nl[view] [source] 2023-10-04 18:40:44
>>hn_thr+(OP)
I mean it isn't just minimalism. It makes waterproofing way easier and allows for sturdier construction in a smaller device when getting said device apart again isn't really a priority.

Also who in the world needs all this replacement batteries anyway? I'm still rocking a 13 Pro purchased when new, I have no plans to upgrade and my battery is bloody fine. I still end every day with a good 40% charge at minimum and I'm an app developer, so I'm on my phone for a good solid portion of every day. And prior to this one I had an X which not only didn't have any major battery issues but my wife still used it for another year after I bought my 13, and then, near the tail end of her ownership, STARTED having some battery problems. At the end of year 4 of service as a daily driver.

replies(3): >>hn_thr+7m >>Night_+On >>callal+FY
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7. hn_thr+7m[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:44:06
>>Toucan+nl
> Also who in the world needs all this replacement batteries anyway?

Really?? I get that you personally may not see a need for this, but it takes special kind of blinders to pretend that your experience is universal. Tons of people want replaceable batteries. You're welcome to talk to the iFixit folks if you need more evidence.

replies(1): >>Toucan+Lm
8. jmspri+om[view] [source] 2023-10-04 18:45:12
>>hn_thr+(OP)
If the EU does mandate it, like USB-C we will see the corresponding iPhone release tout how they have the greenest batteries and an amazing (same number) X hours of batterylife, but only the greenest battery life.

Snark aside and how most phones/etc are put together these days, I see issues in the general population of replacing the battery if it requires opening the case.

replies(1): >>hn_thr+Fo
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9. Raed66+Im[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:46:38
>>theshr+od
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
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10. Toucan+Lm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:46:48
>>hn_thr+7m
My question wasn't do people want replacement batteries, they clearly do. My question is why they need them? I don't understand how one person's experience with a battery can be so much different than anothers. I would think, if anything, my usage of my phones in my day to day work would mean I'd be harder on phones than most people, not apparently easier.
replies(3): >>rat998+Zs >>hn_thr+9G >>wffurr+kO
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11. hn_thr+7n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:48:32
>>theshr+od
"Back away from the tribalism." This is not an Apple v Google v Samsung issue.

I'm in no way saying Google or Samsung is better in any way here, and in many ways Apple has improved their repairability scores over the past few years. The reason I highlighted Apple was because they really led the way in gluing down batteries everywhere, but the problem is definitely industry-wide now.

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12. Night_+On[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:50:54
>>Toucan+nl
See, you made a good point at first and then ruined it. You are absolutely right about the benefits, but:

>who in the world needs all this replacement batteries anyway

>I'm still rocking a 13 Pro purchased when new

Congratulations, your phone with a whopping 2-years of age still has a good battery. (Though I'm not sure losing 60% a day is really great imo...)

Try living in a world where a $300 phone is a big expense, and now it barely lasts a day when it used to last a week.

1: Some people have phones that are just fine, but have a dying battery. Replacing an otherwise perfectly functional phone just because the battery is going is massive e-waste.

2: Not everyone can afford constantly replacing their ever-more-expensive phones just because the battery died. Even if they can, it's a really wasteful use of money.

Consumers should have the choice. They can get a product with some compromises, but a replaceable battery - or a potentially more durable, more waterproof phone without one.

Of course they don't bother because the demand is a vocal minority. Most people don't care. But the e-waste effects everyone so something does need to be done.

replies(2): >>scarfa+Ap >>Toucan+aq
13. scarfa+xo[view] [source] 2023-10-04 18:53:45
>>hn_thr+(OP)
So you’re blaming Apple - with 13% market share worldwide?

And I kind of care about waterproof phones. Before you bring up the old Samsungs, if you didn’t put the battery on just right (and Samsung warned you about it), you would lose water resistance.

replies(1): >>eterni+RJ
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14. hn_thr+Fo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:54:07
>>jmspri+om
> Snark aside and how most phones/etc are put together these days, I see issues in the general population of replacing the battery if it requires opening the case.

Every phone (before the advent of eSims) used to come with a simple sim-opening tool that made it trivial to open the sim tray. I find it baffling to think that phone manufacturers would find it so difficult to add some teeny screws or other fasteners that could be easily opened with a 2 cent tool that would come with the phone.

replies(1): >>jmspri+7r
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15. scarfa+Ap[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 18:59:03
>>Night_+On
Or you could just pay $70 for Apple or an authorized dealer to replace the battery after three years.

Those same users don’t have to buy a $300 phone - which by the way is more than the average selling price of an Android phone - there are plenty of unsubsidized Android phones for less than $100.

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16. Toucan+aq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 19:01:16
>>Night_+On
> Congratulations, your phone with a whopping 2-years of age still has a good battery. (Though I'm not sure losing 60% a day is really great imo...)

Well again, I spend a lot of my day with my phone on and being used to do my job. And I also use it plenty for bathroom breaks, screwing around between tasks, the usual stuff. In my mind, running like that for 16 hours per day and still having 2/5th's in the tank is pretty good.

> Try living in a world where a $300 phone is a big expense, and now it barely lasts a day when it used to last a week.

I have never owned any smartphone that lasted even close to a week. When I was younger, my droid would occasionally go a couple of days between charges, if I was particularly busy and therefore not using it. I don't think I've owned a phone I haven't charged overnight since... gotta be like 2011?

> 1: Some people have phones that are just fine, but have a dying battery. Replacing an otherwise perfectly functional phone just because the battery is going is massive e-waste.

But again that's what my question is getting at and what I'm trying to understand: how are people frying out their batteries like they are?

replies(1): >>wheels+5b1
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17. jmspri+7r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 19:06:31
>>hn_thr+Fo
It adds to the cost of goods and probably the manufacturing process. Yes, you used to be able to replace batteries easily. Most are long, thin & flat to go with slimmer phones. Possible, for sure, but we will see.
replies(1): >>hn_thr+oy
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18. rat998+Zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 19:14:54
>>Toucan+Lm
In a world where Apple slows down your phone when battery is worn out and considers it fair. It should be fair too to have the ability to replace it.
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19. hn_thr+oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 19:39:04
>>jmspri+7r
Apple is one of the most advanced consumer electronics companies on the planet. I may question its utility, but their VR headset is one of the most amazing feats of consumer product engineering I've ever seen. So excuse my scepticism if "replaceable battery" is somehow beyond their engineering and product design prowess.
replies(1): >>jmspri+IF
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20. theshr+oB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 19:51:43
>>hn_thr+hl
The 3310 has a literal IP rating of 00.

Compared to a modern iPhone you can throw in a pool and dig out safely a few minutes later.

Batteries post 2007 have gotten REALLY good, the capacity/weight ratio has gone up so much that swapping batteries mid-day isn't a thing people do. Drones weren't a big thing in those times because you couldn't get enough power to lift one up. Now a 249 gram DJI drone can fly ~45 minutes on a single battery that's about the size of 2-3 matchboxes.

I still remember the laptop I had around that time that had two batteries so that I could swap one and still keep it running with the other.

On the other hand my current M2 MacBook lasts for two full workdays without charging easily, even more if I just sit in meetings and don't do anything CPU/GPU intensive.

replies(1): >>capita+QE
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21. capita+QE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:05:19
>>theshr+oB
My Samsung XCover6 pro has a replaceable battery and an IP68 rating. It doesn't seem to be that hard to make the battery replaceable, you just keep it in a separate area from the rest of the water-tight electronics.
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22. jmspri+IF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:08:20
>>hn_thr+oy
I don't doubt they would be able to do so. I think the choice of doing so, maintaining esthetics, and making it such that a layman can do it while not making tradeoffs they don't want to probably play into it.
replies(2): >>idiots+1n2 >>_rutin+Tg5
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23. hn_thr+9G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:10:05
>>Toucan+Lm
Can't comment on the details of your experience, but both my Pixel phones and iPhones (albeit earlier gen iPhones) all had significant, noticeable battery degradation between years 2 and 3.
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24. eterni+RJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:26:21
>>scarfa+xo
They have a small marketshare but an oversized amount of trend setting power.

I would imagine nonreplacable batteries would happen without them, but it does seem like every other brand copies whatever crap Apple decides to put out, especially the aesthetics. There are so many very obvious apple clone products.

replies(1): >>scarfa+VQ
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25. wffurr+kO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:44:34
>>Toucan+Lm
What I really want is to be able to replace my battery when it's worn after after years of usage by undoing some screws and fiddling with a gasket. Trying to melt a ton of glue and pull out a glued-in battery without starting a fire is incredibly difficult and unnecessary.
replies(1): >>Toucan+CD2
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26. scarfa+VQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 20:55:03
>>eterni+RJ
And you blame Apple instead of the 87% of the market that can’t come up with better ideas and set “trends”? Including little companies like Google and Samsung?

It really seems to infuriate geeks that normal people don’t have their same priorities.

Out of the literally dozens of Android manufacturers, if that was something people wanted, wouldn’t someone make it?

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27. callal+FY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 21:33:43
>>Toucan+nl
Battery degradation is not linear. They tend to be fine until they fall off a cliff at the 2-3 year mark. You just haven’t gotten there yet.
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28. wheels+5b1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-04 22:59:12
>>Toucan+aq
We're not frying batteries quicker, we're using our phones longer. The only reason I'd have to replace my 3.5 year old phone is that the battery is dying, but it probably doesn't make sense to spend half the price of my phone (phone was only $200-ish) on a replacement. I just don't have any qualms with my phone or have any particular reason to need a new one. I resent having to replace my phone because a part that could be easily user swapable at a reasonable price point isn't.

Your assumption that phones would only be used for 2 years is pretty weird on an article about using phones for 8 years.

29. thiht+YP1[view] [source] 2023-10-05 06:18:33
>>hn_thr+(OP)
> Every cell phone I had before the iPhone came out had an easily replaceable battery

I’m not sure how important it is. My first phones with replaceable batteries sucked, the plastic cover would always pop out and was generally a point of failure. And it never did me any good, as most phones died before the battery became an issue.

Today I’ve had an iPhone for 3 years and the battery is still going strong. If I need to replace it… I’ll just find someone who can replace it, easy enough. Sure it would be more convenient to be able to do it myself, but if it happens once every 4-5 years I honestly don’t care, and will take the daily convenience of no plastic cover instead.

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30. idiots+1n2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 11:58:55
>>jmspri+IF
Yes, it's difficult to maintain the 'giant pile of scrooge mcduck gold' aesthetic in the apple corporate vaults if users aren't railroaded into buying a new phone every few years.
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31. Toucan+CD2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-05 13:43:39
>>wffurr+kO
Is it? Do you know that for a fact? Because while admittedly I've not designed a phone, I've owned and used many things that used screws and gaskets to provide protection from water ingress, and those things rarely survived full submersion which is what is offered currently on the iPhone (and has been for some time.) The other day I got in my hot tub after a stressful day of work only to realize my phone was still in my damn pocket, and while I had to take the case off for a bit and let everything air dry, apart from that I walked away from that totally consequence free.

I'm not opposed on principle to people having the option of repairability vs the sleek lines and watertightedness glue assemblies offer, that's completely fine. I just feel the need to push back on this narrative that's gotten so much traction here. There are a LOT of advantages to how newer phones are built that have nothing to do with forcing you over a barrel for maintenance costs, though I'm sure the suits are just fine with it if they do.

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32. _rutin+Tg5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-06 09:18:50
>>jmspri+IF
And keeping the phone as water resistant
33. winter+WY7[view] [source] 2023-10-07 04:37:13
>>hn_thr+(OP)
Honestly, at least with Apple, you can go to them and get a battery replacement for $99 (or less), even for pretty ancient iPhone models. I have no idea if other manufacturer with sealed phones have as straightforward a battery replacement experience.
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