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1. modele+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:25:42
> odds were tripled for autism (OR = 3.1; 95% CI: 1.02, 9.7)

This is scientific malpractice! The most ridiculous confidence interval I've ever seen! 1.02 to 9.7, reported as "tripled", seriously? And of course the data is non-blinded, self-reported survey responses recalling events that occurred many years ago, and the analysis is not preregistered and splits the cohort in an arbitrary way to eke out so-called "statistical significance" (by the slimmest imaginable margin, 1.02 > 1.00, just barely).

How can this dreck be published? Everyone involved should be sanctioned. And everyone who took this headline at face value should seriously reconsider their approach to consuming science news.

replies(10): >>dkaspe+B1 >>ToValu+A3 >>tpmx+F4 >>Admira+A6 >>jtaft+D7 >>danShu+R9 >>vegeta+fl >>smsm42+bN >>tomjen+6S >>lost_t+ot1
2. dkaspe+B1[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:34:31
>>modele+(OP)
Yeah, I’m gonna need to see some replication with stronger methodology than self reporting and better confidence interval before I put much weight on this study.
3. ToValu+A3[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:46:14
>>modele+(OP)
They're at least acknowledging obesity as a confound, but I don't see any reference to sugar sodas or caffeine in a Ctrl-F + skim.
replies(1): >>adrr+s6
4. tpmx+F4[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:52:32
>>modele+(OP)
The r/science discussion of this paper 3 days ago is interesting:

https://old.reddit.com/r/science/comments/16t4eyg/drinking_d...

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5. adrr+s6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:01:28
>>ToValu+A3
I didn’t see any reference to controlling for age which is has been shown to be one the biggest factors in autism.
6. Admira+A6[view] [source] 2023-09-30 17:02:29
>>modele+(OP)
What was it Kurt Vonnegut said? "Pity the reader." The average person has little to no understanding of statistics. The study is coming from a (seemingly) reputable university source. What reason would the uninformed have to be skeptical?
replies(2): >>tpmx+N9 >>dimal+Ba
7. jtaft+D7[view] [source] 2023-09-30 17:09:37
>>modele+(OP)
With an 95% confidence interval which doesn’t include zero, doesn’t it mean that it’s statistically significant?

Assuming data is valid and unbiased of course.

Not a statistician, just curious.

replies(3): >>wxnx+t8 >>jagged+x8 >>bogeho+La
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8. wxnx+t8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:14:03
>>jtaft+D7
Nope, you're thinking of regression coefficients, where you'd be correct that usually the null hypothesis is $\beta = 0$. In this case, what's being reported are odds ratios, so the null hypothesis would be that OR = 1.

The parent comment's point is that although the reported effect is significant at $\alpha = 0.05$ (the usual "95% CI" you mentioned), there are other problems that render their test of this hypothesis less than valid.

replies(1): >>jtaft+09
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9. jagged+x8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:14:13
>>jtaft+D7
For odds ratio, you're looking for > 1.0, as 1.0 implies "the usual odds" i.e. the null hypothesis.
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10. jtaft+09[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:17:06
>>wxnx+t8
Ah thank you, had to read up on odds ratio.

edit for those curious about odds ratio https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK431098/#:~:text=The%20....

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11. tpmx+N9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:21:08
>>Admira+A6
It's published in Nutrients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDPI#Resignations_of_editors

In August 2018, 10 senior editors (including the editor-in-chief) of the journal Nutrients resigned, alleging that MDPI forced the replacement of the editor-in-chief because of his high editorial standards and for resisting pressure to "accept manuscripts of mediocre quality and importance.

12. danShu+R9[view] [source] 2023-09-30 17:21:20
>>modele+(OP)
It's honestly embarrassing to see this article somehow climb to the top of HN. It's a mess of statistical bad practice, self-reported data, and potentially confounded or ignored variables.

Normally when I see a bad study there's like one or two serious problems with methodology, but when I read this through it's almost just every couple of paragraphs that the authors will say something or describe methodology that should be giving the reader pause. From literally the first paragraph in the intro:

> Changes in diagnostic definitions and guidelines and increased testing availability and funding have made major contributions to this increase in diagnosed cases; under the added impacts of changes in dietary, environmental, and other exposures affecting the intrauterine environment, ASD prevalence has reached unprecedented proportions.

Those two sentences contradict each other! You can't just tie them together with a semicolon like one thought implies the other. I'm not even saying that autism cases aren't actually rising at all, but you can't just go "our diagnostic criteria have changed; therefore environmental and dietary exposures are the cause." You have to actually put in the bare-bottom minimal amount of work to describe why you think that diagnostic criteria and social awareness aren't the primary causes, you can't just claim that changing diagnostic criteria itself implies diets are to blame.

It's unsurprising that somebody who would write this way would do bad statistical analysis.

replies(2): >>bogeho+1c >>bornfr+9d
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13. dimal+Ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:26:09
>>Admira+A6
Yet, on other topics, people have “trust science” drilled into them, and are made to feel like heretics when they’re skeptical. They can’t win.
replies(1): >>xtract+4H1
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14. bogeho+La[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:27:12
>>jtaft+D7
> With an 95% confidence interval which doesn’t include zero, doesn’t it mean that it’s statistically significant?

That’s explained here: https://xkcd.com/882/

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15. bogeho+1c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:32:34
>>danShu+R9
>> Changes in …

> Those two sentences contradict each other!

Id say that it’s a non sequitur; the first part of the sentence before the semicolon states something completely different than what follows, so the ‘impacts’ can’t be ‘added’ - they don’t have the same units.

replies(1): >>danShu+Xd
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16. bornfr+9d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:38:12
>>danShu+R9
> It's honestly embarrassing to see this article somehow climb to the top of HN.

To be fair, upvote doesn't necessarily mean "I agree with this", it often just means "this is the topic I would like to discuss".

I agree that the article is crap though.

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17. danShu+Xd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:44:01
>>bogeho+1c
Fair point; it's not that changing diagnostics mean that there can't be environmental/dietary changes contributing to increased autism cases, it's that the article just entirely skips over that part. It describes an outcome, describes a potential cause that could explain that outcome and then says, "and obviously also diets too."
18. vegeta+fl[view] [source] 2023-09-30 18:26:48
>>modele+(OP)
I read the article. I fell for it. And I upvoted it.

I understood enough that this study found a correlation and that this was based on surveys. I thought it was an interesting finding, and concluded that this correlation should be examined more closely with more rigorous studies.

I did not go into the details of methodology and statistics and did not conclude, like you did, that this study has dubious value.

This is a trap that the public find themselves in with science reporting. Many people on HN have technical training to grasp these concepts but not understand them. I my self program, and use many of the same intellectual building blocks scientists use in the execution of my job. But I am not a scientist.

I am not a scientist is the key point because it means that I do not understand science. I know the “process” of science. I’ve read scientific papers. I’ve done toy experiments in school and in university. But I don’t understand it. To draw an analogy, Programming is a perception of reality. There are things that I do that I can never explain to management because they do not have direct experience with it. The “identity a bird in the park” XKCD comic is a meme of this concept [1] notwithstanding advances in AI research.

Like programming, science is a perception of reality. Like my management, I may have taken statistics, I know what confidence intervals are. But I have not lived the experience of building an experiment. Getting results, analyzing them, and constructing the distinctions necessary to reach an interesting and valid conclusion. If you’ve gone though that process, you know where to look for problems in a study. I and many people don’t. We will at best say, further study is needed, and at worst say that diet soda causes autism.

The public depends on experts to enter the conversation and share why things are wrong. This of course gets into the problem of “lies will make it half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”. Retractions may be made, but never perceived. This makes us vulnerable to bad faith actors employing the gish gallop and there’s not a general purpose solution to that.

[1] https://xkcd.com/1425/

19. smsm42+bN[view] [source] 2023-09-30 21:30:51
>>modele+(OP)
"Vaccines cause autism" is old and tired, but sodas are fashionable bad guys, so "sodas cause autism" is cool.
20. tomjen+6S[view] [source] 2023-09-30 22:01:59
>>modele+(OP)
And people wonder why we go to the comments first and the article send, if at all.
21. lost_t+ot1[view] [source] 2023-10-01 04:46:24
>>modele+(OP)
Yeah I had a nursing friend bring this up to me and I looked up the paper; i don't know jack about the medical industry but these numbers were ridiculous and the methods atrocious lol. I told her that the stats were basically useless which made the paper useless. She didn't like my answer. My two or so diet sodas a day habit will likely continue.
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22. xtract+4H1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 07:12:02
>>dimal+Ba
One should trust science, just dont trust scientists.

I was "around" science for a good chunk of my life (both mom and that used to be academics, and I spent 8 years in academia myself doing a phd and postdoc).

The amount of crap studies, politics and bullshit that happens in those circles will make you realise how sad the state of the "advancement of science" is. And my experience was in 3 very different countries. We desperately need something like AI to be able to synthesize and filter scientific publications

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