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1. sokolo+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:09:21
Lead was introduced into the environment at least as early as the Roman Empire. It’s why we call plumbers plumbers.

How much slower would we have reasonably gone to avoid lead?

replies(3): >>MoOmer+I1 >>colord+52 >>mcpack+v3
2. MoOmer+I1[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:18:57
>>sokolo+(OP)
They understood and accepted the risks in that case - as an acceptable trade-off, which is different from the introduction of chemicals or compounds that aren’t well understood.
replies(2): >>hiAndr+A2 >>blowsk+O2
3. colord+52[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:20:15
>>sokolo+(OP)
That's the past. We can make different choices going forward. Not all new chemicals propel civilization forward. Aspartame for instance. And why do we need to "go fast"? Most of the problems we are trying to use technology to solve right now are precisely because because we've gone "too fast".
replies(1): >>Random+J2
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4. hiAndr+A2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:22:52
>>MoOmer+I1
Are you telling me the Romans knew about the ~15 point IQ decrease lead exposure causes in children?
replies(2): >>mcpack+q4 >>p3rls+75
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5. Random+J2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:23:18
>>colord+52
The position that we are not going fast enough is also not without merit.
replies(1): >>colord+ka
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6. blowsk+O2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:23:39
>>MoOmer+I1
The Romans understood the issue of lead poisoning?
replies(1): >>airstr+Z6
7. mcpack+v3[view] [source] 2023-09-30 16:28:41
>>sokolo+(OP)
Excuse the nitpick, but the lead Romans used for plumbing was acquired from the environment. The Romans didn't introduce it to the environment, they just moved it from one part of the environment to another. This is different from chemicals which are created for the first time ever by the chemical industry.

Incidentally, the lead wasn't really being mined to make lead pipes. They mined galena for the tiny amount of silver it has and got tons of lead from that.

replies(3): >>OJFord+j8 >>gpdere+P8 >>vimax+Za
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8. mcpack+q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:33:36
>>hiAndr+A2
Not IQ specifically but there were Romans who recognized that lead, and specifically lead pipes, were harmful:

Marcus Vitruvius Pollio (c. 80 BCE – c. 15 BCE) wrote:

> 10. Clay pipes for conducting water have the following advantages. In the first place, in construction:--if anything happens to them, anybody can repair the damage. Secondly, water from clay pipes is much more wholesome than that which is conducted through lead pipes, because lead is found to be harmful for the reason that white lead is derived from it, and this is said to be hurtful to the human system. Hence, if what is produced from it is harmful, no doubt the thing itself is not wholesome.

> 11. This we can exemplify from plumbers, since in them the natural colour of the body is replaced by a deep pallor. For when lead is smelted in casting, the fumes from it settle upon their members, and day after day burn out and take away all the virtues of the blood from their limbs. Hence, water ought by no means to be conducted in lead pipes, if we want to have it wholesome. That the taste is better when it comes from clay pipes may be proved by everyday life, for though our tables are loaded with silver vessels, yet everybody uses earthenware for the sake of purity of taste.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ten_Books_on_Architecture/Boo...

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9. p3rls+75[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:37:48
>>hiAndr+A2
More or less.

Pliny speaks of the "noxious and deadly vapour" (sulfur dioxide) of the lead furnace (XXXIV.l.167; there was, in fact, a four-fold increase in atmospheric Pb pollution during the Greco-Roman period); red lead (minium) (XXXIII.xli.124) and white lead (ceruse) (XXXIV.liv.176) as poisonous, even though both were used as a medicine and cosmetic; and the power of sapa (and onion) to induce an abortion (XXIII.xxx.62). Dioscorides cautions against taking white lead internally, as it is deadly (V.103). Soranus recommends that the mouth of the uterus be smeared with white lead to prevent conception (Gynecology, I.19.61). Galen (On Antidotes, XIV.144) and Celsus (V.27.12b) both provide an antidote for poisoning by white lead, and Vitruvius remarks on the pernicious effects of water found near lead mines and its effect on the body (VIII.3.5, 6.11).

The earliest description of acute lead poisoning (mid-second century BC) is given in the Alexipharmaca of Nicander, who speaks of "gleaming, deadly white lead whose fresh colour is like milk which foams all over" (II.74ff). The poet describes a frothing mouth, asperity of the tongue, and dry throat, together with dry retching, chills, delusions, and overwhelming fatigue. But if lead poisoning had been endemic, it presumably would have been remarked upon at the time. And yet there is no mention of the fact until early in the seventh century AD, when Paul of Aegina, a Byzantine physician, described chronic lead poisoning (although he does not associate its symptoms with the disease). "I am of the opinion that the colic affection which now prevails is occasioned by such humours; the disease having taken its rise in the country of Italy, but raging also in many other regions of the Roman empire, like a pestilential contagion, which in many cases terminates in epilepsy, but in others in paralysis of the extremities, while the sensibility of them is preserved, and sometimes both these afflictions attacking together" (Medical Compendium in Seven Books, III.64).

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10. airstr+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:49:24
>>blowsk+O2
apparently they did
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11. OJFord+j8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:55:56
>>mcpack+v3
Couldn't you apply that to anything? Why draw the line at 'chemicals' and how do you define that anyway? Or are we only allowed to use elements? Or anything we can find naturally occurring, but not including other things we created by moving naturally occurring things 'from one part of the environment to another'?

Because all of human progress is just building on top of what we've been able to find, then using those things in combination, and those things, and so on until you get to super evil chemical manufacture. Seems like an arbitratry line?

(For what it's worth I cook a lot and buy very little that isn't a 'raw ingredient', I'm not saying this from a 'let me have my ready meals' sort of perspective.)

replies(1): >>mcpack+qw
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12. gpdere+P8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 16:58:36
>>mcpack+v3
That's a distinction without a difference. A chemical process is required to extract the pb from galena to make it usable for plumbing.
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13. colord+ka[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:07:26
>>Random+J2
There's a wide swath of things we could go fast on. It's not monolithic. Fixing problems, yes. Introducing new conveniences, "better living through chemistry", no.
replies(1): >>Random+Ea
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14. Random+Ea[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:09:52
>>colord+ka
New conveniences are nothing bad.
replies(1): >>colord+l31
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15. vimax+Za[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 17:12:04
>>mcpack+v3
The lead and silver they found naturally was mixed in ore. The Roman’s used a chemical process to refine the ore into purer lead and silver not found alone in nature.
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16. mcpack+qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 19:21:44
>>OJFord+j8
You're reading too much into my nitpick, I'm not suggesting that this distinction is relevant to environmental policy. Obviously waste runoff from mines/etc is a serious issue which warrants environmental regulation.

More relevant to the sokoloff's point is the fact that extraction of lead was not done for the sake of plumbing, it began thousands of years before lead pipes were invented. There wasn't a point where people were weighing the harm of extracting lead against the utility of plumbing; the lead was essentially a waste product of the silver industry.

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17. colord+l31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-30 23:09:37
>>Random+Ea
Easily shown to be wrong with fossil fuels, microplastics, and countless other "advances" that end up harming individuals and society as a whole. More accurate is that some are bad, and some are not. Certainly not "nothing".
replies(1): >>Random+Of1
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18. Random+Of1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 01:21:13
>>colord+l31
Not sure that is true. Claiming the overall use of fossil fuels was net negative for humans needs some strong citations, I'd say. Would it be better if the industrial revolution never happened?
replies(1): >>colord+4l1
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19. colord+4l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 02:22:42
>>Random+Of1
I was just giving examples of questionable advances. Fine, if you want to be pedantic, try to justify leaded gas, thalidomide, and cigarettes.
replies(2): >>sokolo+2p1 >>Random+5G1
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20. sokolo+2p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 03:16:01
>>colord+4l1
Leaded gas helped the Allies win World War II.
replies(1): >>colord+oK1
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21. Random+5G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 06:21:33
>>colord+4l1
Thalidomide as a substance has a wide range of beneficial medical applications.

Cigarettes is interesting, growing tobacco certainly help some poor communities, it had cultural significance etc. Not easy.

replies(1): >>colord+vK1
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22. colord+oK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 07:15:51
>>sokolo+2p1
Unbelievable. The creator of leaded gas knew it was extremely toxic before it was even released.

I'm guessing you are also a supporter of sarin gas, depleted uranium munitions, white phosphorus, zyklon b, and agent orange.

replies(1): >>Random+kQ1
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23. colord+vK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 07:17:33
>>Random+5G1
It's very easy. There is no valid defense of cigarettes. The industry new they caused disease and lied about them. They hired Edward Bernays to market them to women. They paid doctors to sell them as health products. It's an unbelievable stretch just for the sake of argument and inability to admit being wrong on the internet to say that cigarettes are a positive advancement for humanity. WTF.
replies(1): >>Random+yP1
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24. Random+yP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 08:11:56
>>colord+vK1
Always nice to be able to see the world so clearly black and white (btw., cigarettes have many hundreds of years of history you seem to ignore).
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25. Random+kQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-10-01 08:19:31
>>colord+oK1
If you don't like weapons that's a fair point, but not sure in a world with aggression they are necessarily bad as such (and the Nazis used everything for evil).

The discovery (then in its white allotrope) of phosphorus was critically important for many things down the line - not sure we could survive without knowing about that element.

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