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1. tmpX7d+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-19 09:24:28
As someone that haven’t ever been to Germany or interacted with any German government, but works with different governments a lot, it has really become apparent that Germans love telling the rest of the world how bad their bureaucracy is, then go on to describe something that sounds entirely common. It’s like New Yorkers telling you how good and unique bodegas are, and it turns out they either grew up in New York City or some one-traffic-light town and just haven’t had any worldly exposure.

Your personal anecdote as another commenter pointed out says much more about your lack of consulting and general workplace experience than it does about German bureaucracy. It all sounds very typical and again what I’d expect as someone that can count on one hand the number of people in Germany I’ve talked to professionally.

replies(4): >>fl7305+a3 >>twixfe+f3 >>kelnos+c7 >>calmoo+5a
2. fl7305+a3[view] [source] 2023-09-19 09:59:11
>>tmpX7d+(OP)
It might be common, but the German bureaucracy is a lot worse than what Germany's reputation of structure and order would lead foreigners to believe.

And while it might be common around the world, Germany is playing in a lower league than for instance the Scandinavian countries.

In Germany, you need to make appointments and do things in person.

In Sweden, you can change vehicle ownership or register your move to a new address online in minutes.

replies(1): >>kelnos+v8
3. twixfe+f3[view] [source] 2023-09-19 10:00:17
>>tmpX7d+(OP)
No, it really is bad. I've lived in the UK and in Germany and Germany is definitely worse. I don't know why you would have such an opinion on something that you, by your own admission, know nothing about.

If anything the opposite of what you're saying is true. Everyone abroad thinks Germany is so efficient and Germany has this amazing reputation, but the reputation is a lie.

4. kelnos+c7[view] [source] 2023-09-19 10:27:36
>>tmpX7d+(OP)
Perhaps that's true of what the the GP is talking about, but if we consider the article we're discussing here, this requirement when you move to fill out a paper form when you move to a new house, and then wait possibly months for an appointment to bring that form in person to hand to a government official... dear god, that sounds Kafkaesque.

And I say this as an American who was under the impression that some significant bits of the US government bureaucracy are pretty wild. This German thing takes the cake.

Regardless, it's a little weird that you accuse GP of expressing an uninformed opinion about German bureaucracy when you admit that you only have limited secondhand experience with it yourself.

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5. kelnos+v8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-19 10:37:18
>>fl7305+a3
It's nice to know that here in the US we're closer to Sweden than Germany.

I think in most places the buyer of a vehicle still has to mail in a paper form (though if you buy from a car dealership, they'll take care of it), but at least in California, the seller can do their part of the transaction online (which is mainly to inform the DMV that someone else has the vehicle, so you won't be held responsible if something bad happens involving it).

And we don't have to register our moves at all; the government mostly doesn't care if we tell it where we live. Some agencies like the DMV do want to know our address so they can mail us a new driver's license or ID card when the old one expires (but these address changes and license renewals we can do online). The Postal Service will forward our mail to our new address for 3 months if we ask them to, but we don't have to if we don't care.

Obviously the government can and will eventually find out where you live if they need and want to, but there's generally no registration requirement.

6. calmoo+5a[view] [source] 2023-09-19 10:46:10
>>tmpX7d+(OP)
It's much worse than you think here. Germany is in the stone age when it comes to digitalization. As an example, most immigrants will be waiting months to hear back from the Auslanderbehorde - and the only way to get them to reply to you within 2 weeks is to send them a fax.
replies(1): >>southe+Pg
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7. southe+Pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-19 11:31:50
>>calmoo+5a
While I seriously sympathize with some of the above (and below) descriptions of byzantine German bureaucracy and its broad lack of digitization, there's another side to it all that's hard not to appreciate slightly in the context of our creeping, already vast, global surveillance state of constant digital monitoring by thousands of actors both private and public, or both and feeding off each other's surveillance carrion...
replies(1): >>twixfe+ul
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8. twixfe+ul[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-19 12:02:51
>>southe+Pg
A wonderful excuse that German people like to wheel out to try to put a positive spin on being stuck in the 20th century.
replies(1): >>calmoo+NA
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9. calmoo+NA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-19 13:29:41
>>twixfe+ul
Everything is Datenschutz.
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