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[parent] [thread] 14 comments
1. krapp+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-07 22:14:44
>1. Luke went from the most optimistic and positive Jedi in the world, who found the good in Darth Vader, to a dude who tried to kill his own nephew without any explanation on how he got to that point aside from "I had a bad dream". Pathetic even if you ignore he also had dreams about becoming Darth Vader himself, and overcame those.

Luke was always fragile. He barely trained with Yoda, then he basically failed up to celebrity status. His weakness has always been his impatience, and his preference for the quick and easy out.

He became an icon, he got old and disillusioned, he realized his naive view of the world and the Force didn't apply to reality, as he saw the Jedi being just as corrupt as the Sith, and just as the Jedi did he fell back into a rigid orthodoxy that led him to repeat the cycle of generational darkness that he never took the proper effort to address because he was never properly trained. And in the end, he regained a truer and more grounded faith in the force than he had before. What Yoda literally said would happen, happened.

That isn't pathetic, it's an actual character arc. Unfortunately, people like yourself only wanted Luke Skywalker to remain a cardboard cutout.

>3. Leia went into outer space unconscious but magically flew back in without dying???

Leia is the sister of one of the most powerful Jedi in history. She has the Force, too.

It's weird how many people completely missed that.

5. They ruined every other fight in star wars with the hyperspace joust. Why was any other fight a big deal when they could have just rammed a few ships with jump drives into the star destroyers, or hell, the death star.

I've never understood this argument. Why don't we simply kamikaze aircraft and submarines into our enemies now? Why bother with guns and missiles?

I mean, it's a risky (potentially deadly) maneuver that a rebellion lacking in personnel and equipment can scarcely afford to lose through normalizing. It's not something you do all the time even when it is effective. Japan only resorted to kamikaze missions out of desperation.

And I'm curious what exactly you think the effect of ramming into one ship with another ship transitioning into hyperspace should be, and why it shouldn't be an effective weapon at all?

No, this is just finding shit to nitpick about.

>6. Rey is somehow the strongest force user now despite no training. Every other Jedi that got to be that strong had a lifetime of training and tribulations, but now Rey can just beat kylo ren, a lifelong trained Jedi Skywalker with the power of the dark side, just because she's a Mary Sue.

It was established that the Force is a constant, distributed amongst all Jedi. The fewer Jedi there are, the more powerful each becomes because they have access to a greater portion of the whole. Rey was as powerful as she was because, as one of the few Force users left, she had potential access to nearly all of it.

>If you think this movie wasn't a deep betrayal to the universe, you didn't pay any attention to it.

I don't know, it seems like you're the one who didn't pay attention. Did you even see any of the new trilogy or just jump on the hate train when it was popular? Because I've seen all of your criticisms, verbatim, repeated ad nauseum, by people who just seem to be repeating memes.

replies(5): >>iainme+S1 >>losved+4i >>lawgim+xn >>thatne+Xp >>darker+ZO
2. iainme+S1[view] [source] 2023-09-07 22:25:52
>>krapp+(OP)
It was established that the Force is a constant, distributed amongst all Jedi. The fewer Jedi there are, the more powerful each becomes because they have access to a greater portion of the whole.

What?? When was that established?

replies(1): >>lawgim+Un
3. losved+4i[view] [source] 2023-09-08 00:06:17
>>krapp+(OP)
> And I'm curious what exactly you think the effect of ramming into one ship with another ship transitioning into hyperspace should be

It has to be nothing, or else none of the other movies make sense at all. Kinetic energy attacks (accelerate a mass to a great velocity) are the most obvious attack there is, from the dawn of time with throwing rocks to bows and arrows to muskets to cannons on up. And in a universe where you can accelerate a mass immediately to light speed, nothing else will really compare.

So yes, at some level it makes obvious sense that a kamikaze of one starship to another "should" work. But in the Star Wars universe we had had to suspend that disbelief (in some ways justified because light speed jumping isn't real, so maybe it just doesn't work that way) because otherwise X-wings could take out Star Destroyers and the Death Star is unnecessary because you can just strap the hyperspace drives to large hunk of rock.

replies(1): >>krapp+Ut
4. lawgim+xn[view] [source] 2023-09-08 00:46:54
>>krapp+(OP)
> 6. Rey is somehow the strongest force user now despite no training. Every other Jedi that got to be that strong had a lifetime of training and tribulations, but now Rey can just beat kylo ren, a lifelong trained Jedi Skywalker with the power of the dark side, just because she's a Mary Sue.

In Star Wars, there are "force sensitive" Jedis and not sensitive. I believe Rey was force sensitive just like the Skywalkers. Rey comes from a bloodline of Palpatine too. Thus, this explains how other Jedis' are "quick" to learn, etc.

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5. lawgim+Un[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 00:49:22
>>iainme+S1
I believe what the parent comment meant was that, when someone dies he/she will become "one with the force" (cosmic force) and will bring additional power to the force (living force). I forgot what comic or series I read or watched that from but that's how it worked if you watched all Star Wars, including the stupid animated ones.
replies(2): >>krapp+ZA >>Karrot+HW
6. thatne+Xp[view] [source] 2023-09-08 01:05:44
>>krapp+(OP)
In reference to Luke not really knowing what the heck he is doing, see also The Mandalorian season 2.5 (BoBF) - (summarized) "Hey little green guy, you can either join my weird cult and never see your friends again, or you can go ahead and f*ck off"
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7. krapp+Ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 01:36:32
>>losved+4i
You have to take into account that Star Wars is not an attempt to simulate realistic space battle strategy and tactics, it's pew-pew space battles and laser swords and pulp adventure. It was never realistic. The Death Star is a patently ridiculous, extremely inefficient weapon, since there's no need to entirely explode a planet to destroy it, as is it needing to wait until the moon of Yavin is out of the way when it could easily destroy Yavin from any axis, as is the trench run, which only exists at all because George Lucas ripped off a World War 2 movie, scene for scene, as is the plot twist of the exhaust port. Yes, it's been retconned (like the parsecs thing) but it's still goofy as hell that two torpedos could cause a chain reaction big enough to blow up an entire moon-sized ship even if it hit the reactor dead on. People accept it because it's the OT and they have nostalgia glasses on but it really is kind of bullshit.

The Empire was just that arrogant and self-confident that they never noticed such an obvious flaw until it was too late? Still bullshit.

Sabotage? Better, and it got us Rogue One, which was a great movie. But even then it stretches credibility.

The walkers in Empire Strikes Back are ridiculous, no one would actually build those, with their obvious (and easily exploited) weakness. And in a universe with blasters, no one would ever be using lightsabers. Hell, if you can force choke someone, which even Luke did with that Gammorean guard, why not just force pinch an artery in your enemy's brain or heart? Why bother with all the spinny flips and shit? Just force heart attack from a concealed location, done.

Realistically, you wouldn't even have dogfights in space at all, much less with plane-shaped ships that bank through turns, you would have fully automated, spherical droids attacking from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away or just, as you mentioned, toss a big FU asteroid through hyperspace into the orbit of a planet. And yes, the elephant in the room is that any FTL drive is by definition a weapon of mass destruction.

None of it makes much sense. It never has, because it has always been more important that things look cool than make sense. But the point is, ramming a ship with another ship while going into hyperspace makes no less sense than anything else. The transition to hyperspace isn't instantaneous, you can see the ships zooming in and out of hyperspace and see the starfield warp. So logically there must be a point at which it works. Maybe the margin of error for that is so razor thin that it's not worth trying most of the time. Maybe the particular shape of the ships involved made it an optimal strategy that one time. I don't know, but one can come up with excuses a lot less goofy and contrived that the "maze of black holes" that justifies the parsec line about the Millennium Falcon to justify it.

People are just being particularly nitpicky about this one element while they're willing to forgive the decades of patent ridiculousness that came before.

replies(2): >>saiya-+vb1 >>the_af+xi3
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8. krapp+ZA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 02:51:44
>>lawgim+Un
No, I meant what I said, it was one of the things they changed about the way the force worked in the new movies, but I'll be damned if I can actually find a source to prove it. So there's a chance I Mandela Effected myself but I'd swear it was a thing.

Even then, assuming I'm full of shit... she's a Palpatine. Secret legendary bloodline. I hate it but it still works in universe.

9. darker+ZO[view] [source] 2023-09-08 04:56:06
>>krapp+(OP)
I disagree with much of your post, but the first point bothers me the most. If the trilogy were about Luke's disillusionment and fall, I would have been much more interested. You are filling in a ton of back story that I can see making sense, but you can't just handwave it in, especially with a character as important a Luke Skywalker. I can see a creative and emotionally compelling series about how he deals with impostor syndrome and I could even see it ending very badly for him. Treating that character arc as a sidebar misses the point of the entire saga.
replies(1): >>krapp+6z1
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10. Karrot+HW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 06:06:00
>>lawgim+Un
They established this in Episode 1, when Qui-Gon talks about becoming "one with the force". It was implied to tie in with the Originals when the holograms of Obi-Wan and Anakin show up in the ending of ROTJ.

I'm not sure what changed with the fewer Force users thing in the new series shrug.

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11. saiya-+vb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 08:10:09
>>krapp+Ut
Can't agree more. SW is just popcorn fun, brain better left elsewhere. I think people are being too harsh and pedantic, Lucas never bothered to make every single aspect of the universe and story infallible and scientifically correct.

I mean if I start taking apart every single aspect, logical issues are there. Why use useless troopers who can't hit barn when robots are so much better? Space bombers that drop bombs in WWII style doesn't make any sense at all. Empire of first 3 movies is bunch of incompetent idiots who couldn't run a local 7/11, not a galactic empire. Literally pick any aspect, it doesn't make much sense in real world.

I had blast watching new trilogy in cinema, simply because I expected same level of brainless fun as original movies, and it delivered. And that's enough, making SW into some infallible religion is as stupid as other religions.

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12. krapp+6z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 11:54:58
>>darker+ZO
The intent was there, even if it was poorly executed on. That lack of coherence is one of the most frustrating elements of the new trilogy for me. It had a lot of good ideas but no sense of direction.
replies(1): >>darker+9fa
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13. the_af+xi3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 20:32:11
>>krapp+Ut
Fully agreed with the gist of your point...

...with the addendum that it's still possible to dislike the silliness of the prequels and the new trilogy, while embracing the silliness of the OT. Rose-tinted glasses? You betcha! The OT meant the world to me when I was young.

I like Rey though. I think the accusations of her being a Mary Sue are mysogynistic -- isn't Luke's journey in the OT essentially the same? -- as is some of the backlash against the new trilogy. Which I also find boring, but not because the main characters are women or whatever.

What undid the new trilogy, in my opinion, was a couple of things:

- As a reaction against the worst excesses of the prequels, they instead stayed too close to the OT, especially during the serviceable but uninspired The Force Awakens, basically a remake of A New Hope.

- Then, it's clear JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson didn't see eye to eye (or their creative teams didn't, same thing), and so the rest of the new trilogy is essentially a flamewar between the two, with each saying "what happened before didn't matter, THIS is what matters now!" and undoing what the other did. Which was... embarrassing. Again, the OT was also full of retcons -- e.g. it's obvious Leia wasn't Luke's sister in Episode IV -- but at least it wasn't a glorified flamewar of writers actively undoing what others before had done.

replies(1): >>hyperh+9p8
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14. hyperh+9p8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-10 18:37:57
>>the_af+xi3
> I like Rey though. I think the accusations of her being a Mary Sue are mysogynistic -- isn't Luke's journey in the OT essentially the same?

Not even close. Luke had flaws, we saw real loss with Luke that motivated him, Luke spent a lot of time training, and even then couldn't compete with his enemies, he even lost his hand for trying!

I don't even know where you're bringing misogyny into this, seems like a crazy amount of virtue signalling to bring that up out of nowhere. I hate Gary Stu's just as much, that's what ruined Dune for me.

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15. darker+9fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-11 11:34:09
>>krapp+6z1
It wasn't executed on at all. The story was not about Luke, it was about the new class. Which could have been fine as well, but they ruined Luke's character with no explanation. Some people care about that.
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