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1. Arch-T+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-26 16:06:06
I predict that hardware attestation will in 10-30 years become a requirement to maintain an internet connection.

Given Microsoft's push to make their OS support hardware attestation as well as Google's push for technologies which use hardware attestation in broader and broader scopes (Android and iOS has supported this for apps for a long time), the technology to make this possible is increasingly becoming widespread.

Hardware which supports hardware attestation is expensive and some people who can't afford it would therefore be excluded. But I don't think this matters.

If Google forces you to see all their ads then they can sell the ad space for more money. This can make it increasingly profitable to sell devices at an ever increasing loss. Likewise for Microsoft.

As a side note, this will make it incredibly difficult for anyone to compete in the hardware space. Why would someone spend even £500 on a phone or computer from a non adtech company when the adtech company can sell the same device for £100 or £50 or maybe even give it away for free?

By making hardware attestation more mainstream, it will become increasingly difficult to argue that enabling it for things would cut off customers.

I think it's easy to argue in favor of requiring hardware attestation for internet connections from the point of view of a government or an ISP. After all, if your customers can only use a limited set of hardware which is known and tested for security, it decreases the chance of security problems. For a police state like the UK it also seems even easier to justify too.

Even if things don't go that far, in a few years you will become a second class citizen for refusing to allow this on your devices. I can easily imagine banks requiring WEI for their online banking portals (they already do it for all their apps). Likewise I can also imagine my water, gas and electricity companies, or really any company which handles payments, considering this technology.

The worst part is, I don't think most people will care as long as it keeps working seamlessly on their devices. Likewise I don't think governments or the EU will do anything about it. I am not even sure what I can do about it.

replies(2): >>JohnFe+Fu >>derefr+u41
2. JohnFe+Fu[view] [source] 2023-07-26 17:53:57
>>Arch-T+(OP)
> I predict that hardware attestation will in 10-30 years become a requirement to maintain an internet connection.

I fear you're right. But if the current trends keep up, I'll have abandoned the internet entirely before that happens.

I mourn for what we have already lost, and we are poised to lose even more.

3. derefr+u41[view] [source] 2023-07-26 20:09:10
>>Arch-T+(OP)
> I predict that hardware attestation will in 10-30 years become a requirement to maintain an internet connection.

What you fail to take into account, is that geeks like being able to freely goof around with stuff; and that new disruptive tech evolves precisely in the ecosystems where geeks are goofing around with stuff.

Consider the dichotomy between iPadOS and macOS. macOS still exists — and still has things like the ability to disable Gatekeeper, enable arbitrary kernel-extension installation, etc. — because the geeks inside Apple could never be productive developing an OS on a workstation that is itself a sealed appliance. They need freely-modifiable systems to hack on. And they may as well sell other people those free systems they've developed — with defaults that make the tool appliance-esque, sure, but also with clear paths to turning those safeties off.

The same thing was true in the 90s with the rise of walled-garden ISPs. The average consumer might be happy with just having access to e.g. AOL, but the people who work with computers (including the programmers at AOL!) won't be happy unless they can write a program that opens a raw IP socket and speaks to another copy of that program on their friend's computer halfway around the world. And so, despite not really mentioning as a feature, every walled-garden ISP did implicitly connect you to the "raw" Internet over PPP, rather than just speaking to the walled-garden backend BBS-style — because that's what the engineers at each ISP wanted to happen when they used their own ISP, and they weren't going to tolerate anything less.

And then, gradually, all the most interesting stuff for consumers on the Internet — all the "killer apps" — started being things you could only find the "raw" web, rather than in these walled gardens — precisely because the geeks that knew how to build this stuff, had enthusiasm for building it as part of the open web, and no enthusiasm for building it as part of a walled-garden experience. (I would bet money that many a walled-garden developer had ideas for Internet services that they wrote down at work, but then implemented at home — maybe under a pseudonym, to get out from under noncompetes.)

Even if there comes about an "attested Internet", and big companies shift over to using it, all the cool new stuff will always be occurring off to the side, on the "non-attested Internet." You can't eliminate the "non-attested Internet" for the same reason that you can't develop an Operating System purely using kiosk computing appliances.

The next big killer app, after the "attested Internet" becomes a thing, will be built on the "non-attested Internet." And then what'll happen? Everyone will demand an Internet plan that includes access to the "non-attested Internet", if that had been something eliminated in the interrim. (Which it wouldn't have been, since all the engineers at the ISPs would never have stood for having their own Internet connections broken like that.)

replies(2): >>Arch-T+Bw1 >>Bizarr+2D1
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4. Arch-T+Bw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 22:13:17
>>derefr+u41
You have opened up my eyes to an important aspect. I hope you're right.
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5. Bizarr+2D1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 22:58:59
>>derefr+u41
Hell, as soon as the federated systems started getting traction, Meta's Threads got set up to interface with them.

The companies have an imperative, since I guess calling it a vested interest would be an understatement, to not let you escape from their clutches.

They can't force you to come inside, and they can't force you to stay, but they can make it so that it's almost impossible to go anywhere where they are not already there. It's creepy and predatory vulpine super stalker behavior, but unless we establish a system of government that puts our desires above theirs there is not much we can do about it other than stay away to the best of our abilities.

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