zlacker

[parent] [thread] 39 comments
1. sigzer+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:01:46
> The people at Twitter who understood the system and could predict the side effects were all fired or left.

You have zero idea if that is true or not.

replies(8): >>lolind+u >>spamiz+V >>anonym+C2 >>chris_+f3 >>Rimbo+66 >>jrm4+H7 >>onion2+3f >>rlt+xr
2. lolind+u[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:08:35
>>sigzer+(OP)
About 80% of Twitter was laid off or quit. I think it's a reasonable supposition that a good number of those were critical personnel who felt they could get a better deal somewhere else.
replies(2): >>Franks+94 >>maxlin+7B
3. spamiz+V[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:12:15
>>sigzer+(OP)
If it's not true that's actually more damning: The "experts" seem to frequently break it.
4. anonym+C2[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:32:17
>>sigzer+(OP)
We can just read posts by former twitter staff engineers who say the same thing.
5. chris_+f3[view] [source] 2023-07-02 02:38:03
>>sigzer+(OP)
It’s likely. The number of people predicting degradation were wrong only on the length of time it took for the degradation to start occurring.
replies(1): >>lansti+p7
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6. Franks+94[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:46:34
>>lolind+u
"But the code is self-documenting!"
replies(3): >>IntelM+U6 >>_the_i+hi >>ithkui+EI
7. Rimbo+66[view] [source] 2023-07-02 03:04:51
>>sigzer+(OP)
You might be right; the person you're replying to might have zero idea.

Now me... I know someone personally who was a senior exec for Twitter's software team, who left after Elon's purge.

He left because all the people who understood the system and could predict the side effects were fired or left. He'd been with companies going through death spirals before, and had no interest in being involved with another one.

So, while the person you're replying to might not know, my friend DOES know.

replies(2): >>djbusb+t9 >>j16sdi+Qj
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8. IntelM+U6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:12:36
>>Franks+94
No matter how good your documentation or comments are, that doesn't mean whoever is left holding the bag will understand it. Or at least not in the amount of time it would take to keep it from exploding

I understand the abstracted theory of how a nuclear power plant works (uranium heats water -> makes steam -> drives turbines etc) but if you sat me down at the control console and asked me to restart a reactor? Yeah I'd have no idea where to even begin. Even if I had a manual as thick as a fridge to (slowly) flick through

replies(3): >>mastaz+ra >>fires1+jd >>2muchc+OA
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9. lansti+p7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:17:55
>>chris_+f3
I think most experts were fascinated by the whole experiment as it is essentially gathering data on a subject we had theories on but no experiments.

I used to work at a company where both the main data center and the main dev office were in the flight path of a major airport. We joked that if the data center had a plane hit it we’d go down quickly but recover but if the office building got hit we be fine for a while but long term in trouble.

10. jrm4+H7[view] [source] 2023-07-02 03:20:30
>>sigzer+(OP)
Zero idea is a bit much. Seems like an entirely reasonable assumption.
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11. djbusb+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:45:36
>>Rimbo+66
This is still hearsay.

However, even with my limited experience in similar scenarios on smaller scale - it still feels accurate.

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12. mastaz+ra[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 03:59:42
>>IntelM+U6
I have the impression that the comment you are replying to was sarcastic. Of course you're right that experience can't be replaced with documentation. The role of documentation IMHO is making it easier for people to gain experience by smoothing out the process -> it aids the process of gaining experience, does not replace it
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13. fires1+jd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:39:37
>>IntelM+U6
I was a reactor operator. I can't do it now. It takes continuous use to maintain knowledge and skills that narrow.
replies(1): >>lifeis+Kp
14. onion2+3f[view] [source] 2023-07-02 05:00:21
>>sigzer+(OP)
The current state of Twitter seems to indicate there's a significant problem with the code, which implies the people who would have either spotted that before it was deployed or fixed it quickly afterwards, are unable to do so. Given the number of layoffs and resignations Occam's Razor would suggest the reason is because those people aren't available to do that work.

We don't kmow it's true but it is a likely explanation.

replies(1): >>tomato+mM
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15. _the_i+hi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 05:42:04
>>Franks+94
Of course. The machines get it. And do exactly as commanded. ;)
replies(1): >>jjgree+xL
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16. j16sdi+Qj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 05:59:41
>>Rimbo+66
I don't know you or your friend, but thinking how dreadful some hiring process can be, I would defer changing my job as much as possible..
replies(2): >>d3ckar+Ks >>Captai+wx
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17. lifeis+Kp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 07:06:18
>>fires1+jd
Seriously ? How did you end up in that line of work?

HN has a tendancy to find something like "nominative determinism" - "comment determinism" where a comment about a job produces a (contradictory) reply from someone doing that job.

replies(2): >>Eisens+8P1 >>Cobalt+XH5
18. rlt+xr[view] [source] 2023-07-02 07:27:42
>>sigzer+(OP)
Why should such things matter if it fits his narrative?
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19. d3ckar+Ks[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 07:40:54
>>j16sdi+Qj
Hiring processes are a cakewalk compared to company in death spiral. Damn, even compared to a company with a bad period of high pressure.

It’s a mistake to stay.

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20. Captai+wx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 08:34:45
>>j16sdi+Qj
Arguably, most of the ex-Twitter employees had zero say if they wanted to defer a job search or not.

They were just summarily fired.

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21. 2muchc+OA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:10:55
>>IntelM+U6
AKA domain knowledge
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22. maxlin+7B[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:14:24
>>lolind+u
This rhetoric is well past its peak. When the firings happened, people said twitter would crash in a week. It's been a long time since then, and twitter, for my very generic uses and purposes, has just gotten better.

Demonizing past hard decisions at every unrelated point of difficulty has to be the worst kind of toxicity there is.

replies(4): >>seanhu+gD >>ziftfa+pG >>correl+ON >>lolind+yY
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23. seanhu+gD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 09:38:02
>>maxlin+7B
> Demonizing past hard decisions at every unrelated point of difficulty has to be the worst kind of toxicity there is.

It's not great, but that's really a bizarre thing to say. There are many many things far more toxic than that.

replies(1): >>maxlin+mX
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24. ziftfa+pG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 10:15:49
>>maxlin+7B
Can you explain how the Twitter experience has gotten better for you?
replies(1): >>maxlin+L01
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25. ithkui+EI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 10:45:49
>>Franks+94
Indeed, if a dumb computer can understand the code and execute it flawlessly then so can you! /s
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26. jjgree+xL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:21:55
>>_the_i+hi
They used to, now they mutter amongst themselves, casting occasional contemptuous glances at you and me.
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27. tomato+mM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:31:42
>>onion2+3f
But these are "significant problems with the code" which evidently can't be fixed by simply reverting relevant changes. In that case, it seems more likely to me that these are due to long-standing issues which would have caught up to the company sooner or later.
replies(1): >>onion2+pZ
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28. correl+ON[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 11:46:19
>>maxlin+7B
> for my very generic uses and purposes, has just gotten better.

Interesting. My "generic uses and purposes" was to occasionally scroll around through tweets somebody linked me to.

That's entirely impossible now since I don't have an account (and don't plan to create one).

Roughly speak, it has become infinitely worse for me.

replies(2): >>18pfsm+VV >>maxlin+pY
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29. 18pfsm+VV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 12:53:02
>>correl+ON
It's a big holiday weekend in America, and having an outage seems like a minimal inconvenience, especially for those of us without an account.

There are entire communities of people who relied on the ability to simply read Twitter without an account, took the time to write code of their own, and now are reacting with much more maturity than HN seems to be. The petty personal attacks are simply astonishing.

"RIP Nitter" https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/issues/919

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30. maxlin+mX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:05:34
>>seanhu+gD
It really depends I suppose. If you consider the accused to to be in an unearned place of power, it might feel like an acceptable thing to do (albeit still quite icky and pedesterian). But if the situation is very different and/or you are not sure if your PoV is fully justified, this can absolutely be the most toxic low-effort thing one can do when thrown at someone who's already fighting an uphill battle. Without going to specifics this is something I've experienced myself, and have also seen happen close to me in a very toxic calculated way. So these kinds of comments are IMHO overally very unconstructive.
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31. maxlin+pY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:13:47
>>correl+ON
I really don't expect this to be permanent. For this very second though, I do get your point, there are quite a few services I only visit occasionally through links and even after making an account I was a lurker for the longest time on Twitter.

However talking in a way that takes the current critical temporary state as the default forever isn't very fair

replies(1): >>correl+UT1
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32. lolind+yY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:14:47
>>maxlin+7B
There were some people who predicted that in the heat of the moment, but the rational people at the time were predicting that Twitter would limp along, gradually start to show cracks, and eventually become a husk of what it was as the systems slowly degraded. I'd say we're well on track for that prediction.

This isn't an unrelated difficulty—this kind of bug is the direct result of losing (or ignoring) the people who knew better. Institutional knowledge is a tech company's lifeblood, and Musk gleefully discarded most of Twitter's when he came in.

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33. onion2+pZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:20:47
>>tomato+mM
which evidently can't be fixed by simply reverting relevant changes

Rumors suggest that part of the change is moving from GCP to something else. Something like can't be reverted without signing a new contract with Google (and paying the bill..).

replies(1): >>tomato+kx1
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34. maxlin+L01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:32:20
>>ziftfa+pG
On the community side, it now better reflects its mission as the public market square, where before it was so unbalanced to the left (also making what was to the right way more polarized) that it just wasn't very much fun or developing to stay on for long. Before I was only a lurker but now I sometimes chime in to tech threads without fearing someone will try to cancel me over a way I name a fruit or something.

On the tech side, it has retained everything that made it good (didn't implode!), and the tweet length / "show more" logic fits my style of writing perfectly. Spaces are also a kind of thing that I didn't use before but became immediately accessible as it was added right to twitter itself (and things like the 24h wagner coup space with 6M visitors isn't something I have seen in the past). And other simple things, like long videos sometimes fit a need, even while most of the time a youtube link also works.

Some things like crypto spam also seem to be in a bit better state, though can't obviously ever be completely removed

replies(1): >>me_aga+ZJ4
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35. tomato+kx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 17:05:37
>>onion2+pZ
Ah - I hadn't heard that and it does make some sense. But I'm not sure that the alternative version of events (where the engineers who were fired or left were still around) would look much better in that case - perhaps delay/better planning might have helped (though of course we don't know how much planning was done) but it's also entirely credible that this was essentially inevitable with such a move.
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36. Eisens+8P1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 18:52:28
>>lifeis+Kp
The person I know who is a reactor operator was really good at math, joined the Navy and got trained to operate a nuclear sub. Then in the private sector I am sure that skillset is somewhat rare, so it was easy to get a job there.
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37. correl+UT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 19:23:01
>>maxlin+pY
It's not an unreasonable guess. Instagram did the same thing and never turned back.
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38. me_aga+ZJ4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 16:54:24
>>maxlin+L01
It's interesting to me how deeply politics gets into everything. You like Twitter more because "it was unbalanced to the left" and now reflects your political views better. My experience is that the first 100 replies to every semi-political post are now right-leaning blue checkmark holders and conspiracy theorists, and now I find it "not very much fun".

Honestly, I don't think the "public market square" has ever worked all that well, not even in a physical market square. You get 2 groups with sufficiently different views and before long it's devolved into shouting, if not a brawl.

replies(1): >>maxlin+qT6
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39. Cobalt+XH5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 22:01:04
>>lifeis+Kp
Can’t speak for them, but being poor, intelligent, and in need of steady income when you graduate High School is a very good way to end up in the Navy’s nuclear program.

Source: Was kicked out, poor, and intelligent. Ended up a submarine reactor operator.

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40. maxlin+qT6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-04 08:44:41
>>me_aga+ZJ4
I actually don't like politics being so prevalent in the space but it's quite unavoidable to give free speech any chance in the current environment. I really hope it evens out.

It's just the sad state of the world that the most aggressive, but voice-defining leftists would like to live in a situation where politics is talked about less but take a speech-impeding dictatorial rule as the precondition to allow for something like that to happen. Meaning, as long as every person in the thread or platform has somehow been "vetted" to not be conservative or even moderate, they'll act "normal". (and that ignores purity spiraling in such echo chambers making even that a stretch)

Maybe in one of the futures of this planet people can go back to not being as polarized and twitchy about talking with people with even the opposite viewpoints. Increased amount of mutual respect in a conversation plus all sides having more mental robustness reduces escalation, reducing the speech and experience of having the kind of speech you probably are talking about to a very manageable level and is absolutely best for everyone.

I've learnt to personally take a lot of pains to maintain communication lines with even some quite extreme leftists and actually managed to retain a level of mutual respect with people some of my peers don't even dare to talk to. The end result makes otherwise impossible things greater than individuals could achieve, possible. But it's not very fair feeling like the human in the "pigeon vs human" chess match at times.

Regardless of everything, as long as we're not in some kind of shittyfuture war scenario, I will not stop believing in the concept of a "public market square" of free speech. I don't believe there is any other value that can keep an intellectually diverse human society together.

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