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1. sander+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-01 22:51:23
I'm curious about this: When you were experiencing this, why didn't you quit? I truly feel bummed for the people remaining at Twitter who are miserable but for whatever reason feel they can't just quit.
replies(3): >>nicola+w4 >>Topfi+mR >>Frost1+Co1
2. nicola+w4[view] [source] 2023-07-01 23:28:23
>>sander+(OP)
https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7z5px/twitter-employees-on-...
replies(2): >>rs999g+J7 >>sander+Ip
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3. rs999g+J7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 23:59:05
>>nicola+w4
It's still not forced to work, unless going back to your home country is worse than working at Twitter?
replies(3): >>Scalen+L9 >>dawnbr+Yd >>amf12+dg
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4. Scalen+L9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 00:14:48
>>rs999g+J7
Would anyone get a visa to work in another country if it would not be better than being in their home country?
replies(1): >>lansti+sv
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5. dawnbr+Yd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 00:55:55
>>rs999g+J7
For some people, "going back to your home country" means going back to a place where basic human rights are not protected by law. Further, I'm not sure what having your visa revoked would do to your future immigration prospects--not to mention that, once that visa is revoked, you're technically "in the country illegally", and you may have heard about how badly our legal system treats people, both with and without citizenship.
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6. amf12+dg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:10:46
>>rs999g+J7
Have you moved to another country across the world, made it your home, and had to choose between doing stupid things for a corporation bought by a new CEO or uproot your life and go back home? As much as it's sounds like an easy decision, most people won't uproot their life for Twitter.
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7. sander+Ip[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 02:54:26
>>nicola+w4
I was asking about this specific person's situation. I do recognize (and despise) the visa issue that indentures immigrants to employers. But I'm curious what other circumstances there may be.
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8. lansti+sv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:02:51
>>Scalen+L9
Maybe if they were unsure about which they preferred.
9. Topfi+mR[view] [source] 2023-07-02 08:21:23
>>sander+(OP)
That is a good question, but on the two specific occasions when something of this sort did not make me leave instantly, there were very specific factors at play. I cannot comment on the first situation as that would require an extensive post with an obscene amount of context on my background, politics in my country, the people involved, weighing up the public good, etc. Simply, would go beyond a HN comment and I feel I couldn't do the situation justice anyway for someone who wasn't following local news at the time these things happened.

The second instance, I feel I can comment on, though allow me to leave out details to spare the people involved public embarrassment.

There, the changes, whilst annoying and born out of a complete misunderstanding of a core part of their alleged competency (Imagine a Botanist telling you leaves are always blue because that is the color of the sky), were not going to break anything, just look silly and create unnecessary, but compensated, work.

In that case, I also viewed the specific project finally launching as vitally important to our user base and wanted the results to go public for their benefit, so the decision was made to document and execute on their requests, so we could go live.

Of course, two weeks before our go live date, they changed their requests again ("leaves are not blue, they are violet because of the wave length of light") and had a hard time understanding that changes can have a knock on effect and some things are a bit more complex than Find and Replace. If I had been forced to make those changes at that point, I'd have packed my bags.

Simply said, when my work has the potential to benefit users and I know that arguing, even though I am correct, will lead to massive delays, I'd rather just put that silly request in writing and deal with these things after the users have received what has been worked on. Try to explain when someone is wrong, but if that doesn't work, finish the project, argue later.

Of course, if after the fact responsibility isn't taken, that finished project gets mentioned in my CV for the next employer.

replies(1): >>sander+si1
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10. sander+si1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 13:08:02
>>Topfi+mR
That makes sense, thanks for sharing. I definitely get the thing about not wanting to let people down. And I do wonder if that's how a lot of the people remaining at Twitter feel.
11. Frost1+Co1[view] [source] 2023-07-02 13:56:42
>>sander+(OP)
There are a lot of reasons people stay in positions. Not everyone has the same degree of mobility in terms of a job. Maybe they have little time in their personal life to deal with interview prepping. Maybe they're older and deal with age discrimination. Maybe they're on a work visa and know they're in a leveraged position. Maybe they're not good at negotiation. Maybe they loathe the market. Maybe they have a pile of debt and the current situation is less risky.

As an industry we need to stop perpetuating this idea that everyone is fully mobile and software engineers are some mythical creature that isn't also shackled to the same constraints the rest of the labor force is. It's a job and a lot of people are dependent on a steady income stream. Part of that is putting up with the least worst of the options they have reasonably available to them, or sometimes taking up worse options just because it balances other aspects out. Ultimately during certain times you may have more or less leverage to put up with or reject crap practices. SWEs tend to have a lot more leeway than say a retail worker of course so we can be a bit more demanding but we can't just say crud off, I don't deal with any BS, even in the best of times. Higher salaries give you some negotiation room as well as you can lower your TC expectations in terms of negotiating better working environments (i.e. taking lower rates but demanding things like less pressured schedules, make autonomy, etc.) and as the extreme sof the markets are high enough, even taking TC hits can still let you live comfortably (this is to contrast many other professions who don't have this flexibility).

Unless you've lived modestly and invested significantly or started some side venture to become financially independent of labor based income, you're ultimately giving up some degree of agency to employers. We like to pretend this isn't the case but it is the case for most people, even highly paid labor.

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