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[parent] [thread] 15 comments
1. shon+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-01 21:59:09
I have to disagree. If you honestly take the emotion and politics out of this and evaluate on merit alone, what do you think?

Twitter wasn’t healthy before Musk bought it. It wasn’t a thriving business, it was a very old, very large startup still struggling to find market fit and loosing a lot of money.

Also, it wasn’t a thriving product. It was stagnant.

Since Twitter was purchased, the amount of features they have shipped has been impressive. They’ve shipped a lot of features and extended the platform a lot. To your point they have also done this with far less engineers than before.

Regarding any downtime, everyone has downtime. Google, Amazon, Meta… the best of the best still have it regardless of money or manpower.

Considering what that team has done with less resources, I think the achievement still pretty good. What do you think?

replies(5): >>moored+C >>felipe+k1 >>rvz+m1 >>lamont+04 >>snowwr+l9
2. moored+C[view] [source] 2023-07-01 22:03:24
>>shon+(OP)
> It wasn’t a thriving business, it was a very old, very large startup still struggling to find market fit and loosing a lot of money.

Twitter was profitable in 2018 and 2019.

https://www.netcials.com/financial-net-profit-year-quarter-u...

replies(1): >>meowki+O1
3. felipe+k1[view] [source] 2023-07-01 22:07:55
>>shon+(OP)
> [...] it was a very old, very large startup [...]

Can we start to call companies with almost 18 years old just "companies" and not startup anymore?

replies(2): >>shon+42 >>takeda+xn
4. rvz+m1[view] [source] 2023-07-01 22:08:20
>>shon+(OP)
> Regarding any downtime, everyone has downtime. Google, Amazon, Meta… the best of the best still have it regardless of money or manpower.

I mean, I would expect Microsoft to do a much better job than Twitter to keep GitHub from going down every single month after acquiring it. The frequency of GitHub going down with 100M+ users using it is much worse than Twitter.

It turns out that GitHub's constant downtime for years is all fine (especially tech folks) here despite the monthly complaints anyway. The latest one here [0] But only with Twitter, the speed-bumps are exaggerated and magnified.

[0] >>36523843

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5. meowki+O1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:10:42
>>moored+C
After years of losing money, and then not being profitable in 2020+.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching this.

This 2019 article says they cut costs/Vine and jumped to video ads which boosted revenue 24% which might explain why they were profitable in 2019.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/tech/twitter-earnings-q4/inde...

In 2018 there is mention of a "one-time release of deferred tax asset valuation allowance,” which accounted for $683 million [of income]".

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/25/18018046/twitter-q3-2018-earn...

OP's point stands in my opinion. Twitter was/is a flagging centralized service that may not survive if it doesn't pivot.

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6. shon+42[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:12:19
>>felipe+k1
Totally agree with you. It was only a startup in the sense that it was still struggling to find profitability / solid market fit.

As opposed to something like Amazon which grew and grew for nearly 20 years, always burning more cash than it made to fuel growth, but they understood the business really well and when they decided to optimize for profitability rather than growth, never never gone back.

replies(1): >>HWR_14+v4
7. lamont+04[view] [source] 2023-07-01 22:24:17
>>shon+(OP)
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/25/1139180002/twitter-loses-50-t...

Yeah, it is going great.

I see HackerNews is counterintuitively up its own ass again.

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8. HWR_14+v4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:28:25
>>shon+42
Didn't it take Amazon 15-20 years to blunder into AWS?
replies(1): >>oblio+Z6
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9. oblio+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-01 22:52:09
>>HWR_14+v4
Amazon's retail side was almost always marginally profitable and that was while they were reinvesting like mad in retail infrastructure (data centers, warehouses, etc).
replies(1): >>lamont+7p
10. snowwr+l9[view] [source] 2023-07-01 23:12:22
>>shon+(OP)
The company was not thriving but the product itself was rock solid.

It’s hilarious to think it is at all acceptable to kill public access, and drastically limit authenticated access, because of a few scrapers. There is no way Twitter prior to Musk’s acquisition would have had to do so.

> What do you think?

I think you are not looking at the situation objectively.

replies(1): >>shon+kf
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11. shon+kf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 00:04:49
>>snowwr+l9
Regarding the product, it was solid as in reliable, but stagnant.

I don’t pretend to know all of the motivations behind the policy moves.

That said, I’ve got some experience with scraping; got sued by LinkedIn in 2014. We were using AWS Spot Instances to hit it hard for very little money. It was not uncommon to accidentally take large services down.

Scrapers can and do add very significant load. We also scraped Twitter back in the day as well.

replies(1): >>snowwr+TE
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12. takeda+xn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:15:33
>>felipe+k1
I'm starting to think today the word startup means a non profitable company that only exist, because interest rates are low and investors don't have any better options than invest into them.
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13. lamont+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 01:33:48
>>oblio+Z6
They had lots of Free Cash Flow. It was always routed directly back into growing the business instead of taking profits. Which is always the right thing to do if you can grow the business without hitting any walls, and you avoid paying any taxes that way.

Companies that behave that way and have good returns on capital employed and have large growth in earnings, free cash flow, etc are good investments. Doesn't matter if they're not showing profits.

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14. snowwr+TE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 04:37:13
>>shon+kf
Sites that wish to be ubiquitous must handle scraping in a way that is transparent to valuable users. It’s not like scraping is a new or complex threat to availability. This is table stakes for large services in 2023.

Twitter was very good at this, and their new-found inability is a glaring sign that their engineering is slipping.

replies(1): >>shon+cN1
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15. shon+cN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 15:51:50
>>snowwr+TE
Really? I disagree. Running a ubiquitous service that is good for users does not require that you allow every random person to scrape your site and incur that cost.

You simply setup API deals with those who you want to have your data, those that benefit your business, aka Google etc…

Then you close everything else up. This saves cost and complexity and real users, the target of your advertisers, don’t even notice.

This isn’t a sign that engineering is slipping.

It’s a sign that a in a company which struggles to make money, someone is paying attention and trying new things to fix the money problem.

replies(1): >>snowwr+bc4
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16. snowwr+bc4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-03 12:18:26
>>shon+cN1
> Running a ubiquitous service that is good for users does not require that you allow every random person to scrape your site and incur that cost.

What I said is that they must handle the problem transparently to their valuable users. That includes (requires, usually) targeted techniques to block high-volume scraping.

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