zlacker

I get what you're saying, but the median income for SFO is way below what tech people get paid. "barely livable" is perhaps a bridge too far for the $300k+ crowd. :)

>>tyingq+(OP)
> but the median income for SFO is way below

Yes, it's a huge problem. There are greedy people buying more houses than they can use as investment vehicles, renting them out to everyone else who can't afford housing at unaffordable prices, and that ultimately increases prices across the board on everything because local businesses and service industry also need to rent commercial space and personal space -- and that ultimately comes from greedy landlords who keep lobbying against building more housing.

Most of SF is NOT living a life that I would call "livable". Having roommates in late 30s out of necessity rather than choice, and working out of a bedroom with no sunlight and not retrofitted for earthquake and fire safety and removed of mold spores isn't even ethical IMO, but that's the reality that lots of people live in.

>>dheera+y
Yeah, they just need to put up a bunch of 10 story condo complexes all over the Bay Area. It's insane that Tokyo is so much cheaper than Mountain View

>>tyingq+(OP)
The median person in SFO lives a way worse life than a median person in Ohio

>>dheera+y
> Having roommates in late 30s out of necessity rather than choice

1. It's not as bad as you describe it. Not for tech workers, at least. Please go to the lady working at Walmart and ask her about her income and living arrangements before you rant about $300k a year.

2. Of course it's by choice. Nobody is forced to live in SF or the bay area. Especially not people in tech.

>>bluede+q2
Is there actual data that compares the quality of life for this? I’m curious to see how my city stacks up.

>>bluede+q2
Eh, you'd be surprised how much being able to walk to things, and generally being in a major international city improves your quality of life if that's the kind of thing you prefer...

>>bluede+q2
Maybe, but the average person there isn't “barely living” either.

>>bluede+q2
Only if you define "good life" as having a big house with a big yard.

>>QIYGT+Ta
Last time I ate in SF, I walked past a guy smoking crack on the sidewalk. But, yeah... big house with a big yard is nice.

>>QIYGT+Ta
For literally anyone raising a family, a "good life" isn't actively trying to minimize the loss of every penny of your money to outrageous cost of living, childcare, etc -- all while trying to justify the existence of a "diverse cultural experience" while dodging crack addicts, crime, and other increasingly untenable issues.

>>QIYGT+Ta
Obviously the mileage varies for each person, but my own house on my own land is more enjoyable and fulfilling than anything a city can offer me.

>>zoltar+Le
What.. what does crack smoke smell like?

Cigarettes I know. Marijuana is a bit funky, but it's easy because--by process of elimination--it's not a cancer stick. But now I have to squirrel away a third possibility.

>>zoltar+Le
Can’t reply to the comment below inquiring about odor, but people smoking crack are easy to spot as you don’t roll crack in a cigarette, you smoke it out of a heated glass pipe. It looks entirely different. So it’s easy to notice when done in the open. As far as odor… I think it smells a lot like meth that, when smoked, smells like an odd laundry detergent that you have never smelled before. Sort of like a decaying air freshener. That’s the best I can do.

>>turtle+Gi
A quick search suggests it smells like burning plastic or rubber

>>tyingq+(OP)
Maybe. But I had a big house in the “good school system” in the Atlanta burbs built in 2016 for $335K. Even today that would cost around $550K. It would take more than $300K to duplicate our lifestyle in the Bay Area.

I’ll take my former $150K in the burbs of Atlanta over $300k in the burbs any day.

And before the usual responses implying I’m disdaining what I can’t have, I current work for BigTech remotely.

>>Zetice+57
I’ve been to San Francisco and I’ve been to Ohio. I would much rather be a median income earner in any part of Ohio than a median income earner on the west coast.

How many people making the median income in San Francisco are living in a walkable area?

>>QIYGT+Ta
If you have children, you want to be in the “good school system” at least. If you are working from home, you also want a separate office.

>>Zetice+57
I lived in SF for 9 years. Good memories. And during peak tech boom you could easily shield yourself from the worst of the city. Ubers were cheap, office perks kept you from venturing out, and foot traffic was high enough to make the open air drug use less visible.

But since 2020, it became absolute misery.

I moved to NYC, and I’m much happier here. So your point about being in a walkable city still stands.

>>zoltar+Le
Are you sure it wasn’t fentanyl? The smoke smells like burnt peanut butter, common smell on public transit here in Seattle.

>>scarfa+Vs
You spend on a lot of things beyond housing, and most things outside of housing are about the same price between regions, so even if your housing costs is half as cheap, you are still falling behind on half as much salary. This is especially true for retirement savings, since you don’t have retire in a HCOL where you earned that money, and that expensive house can be sold, perhaps with some kind of profit to offset the extra interest paid, later.

>>seanmc+N41
Gas, property insurance, car insurance for your home (especially since insurance companies are starting to refuse to sell in the state) and even food is more expensive.

To put some real numbers on it.

My 30 year fixed 3.5% mortgage all in from 2016 - 2021 was $2185 and that included the FHA PMI since I only put 3.5% down. I refinanced in 2021 to a 15 year mortgage and bought points and got rid of the PMI. My house is now worth close to twice that.

My mortgage? 1.97% fixed 15 year - $2550 and $1575 of that goes toward principal. My total household expenses as of March 2020 when I was making “only” $150K with my wife working part time making $25K was around $6000. We were bringing home after taxes and before retirement savings about $10500 after maxing out my retirement savings it was about $9300 a month.

And if you haven’t noticed, people are moving away from the west coast and office occupancy is down - that doesn’t bode well for home prices long term.

Our lifestyle is a little different now (see below). But out of my base income which is still only $160K - and my wife no longer works -with the rest coming from RSUs, we still manage to pay all of our expenses and I’m able to max out my 401K.

(>>36306966 ).

I don’t think people who have been in the tech bubble understand how easy it is for a two income earning family to accumulate wealth where one is making your standard enterprise dev tech salaries in a major non west coast city.

Most couples I know our ages where one is a mid career developer also has a spouse working making at least $70K (the average salary of a college grad). You can do quite well in most cities with a household income of $220K.

If you’re younger and single making $135 to $170K - typical for a developer with 5 years of experience outside of the west coast - you can find an apartment or buy a condo in the city for $2500/month.

>>Fezzik+Bj
> people smoking crack are easy to spot as you don’t roll crack in a cigarette, you smoke it out of a heated glass pipe. It looks entirely different.

This isn't entirely accurate, as crack isn't the only drug people use "crack pipes" for. I couldn't tell you what, if anything, crack smells like because I'm not aware of having every been in the vicinity of it being consumed, but I have been around people using what look like crack pipes and I've used them myself too.

In my case: a few times I tried vaping weed with them (though for weed an electric dry herb vape is better, and if wanting to use glass pipe and a flame there are designed-for-weed vapes which are better than generic crack-type pipes), and DMT is another illegal drug that needs (when in pure form, rather than changa) to be vaped rather than smoked - so a crack pipe can be useful for that too. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other drugs that sort of pipe can be used for, too.

Personally I wouldn't use that sort of "crack" pipe in public, partly because many people think like you that it must be crack that's being used, and partly because even people who dont have that incorrect belief could still rightly (or at least, almost always rightly) deduce that something illegal is being consumed.

>>scarfa+Sa1
Are we comparing with Atlanta? Food is more expensive maybe, but not 2X! Insurance is usually not more expensive, especially in mild weather west coast cities. Electricity can be cheaper (Seattle where I’m at). I’m not in California, but still an HCOL. But if I were in LA, food would be cheaper than even Atlanta. Gas is expensive, not that I notice much (I have an EV, and our electricity is cheap).

> And if you haven’t noticed, people are moving away from the west coast and office occupancy is down - that doesn’t bode well for home prices long term.

I wish, but it’s just a dream. The traffic is bad, rents are up, the housing market is insane. You are betting that the “it’s too crowded so no one comes here anymore” will regress so much that housing prices will drop, but that’s not how equilibriums work.

Everyone in our industry should be maxing out their 401k’s, no matter where they are living. However, those who survive in a HCOL will have a lot more assets and money at the end of it than a LCOL, simply because their house is worth more and they made more money (same percentage of savings even with higher expenses).

There are good reasons to live in an LCOL, especially if you like the place and you have friends and family there. But making more money overall than a HCOL isn’t one of them unless the jobs you can get in the HCOL don’t really pay much more than the LCOL (then get out of dodge as fast as you can).

>>seanmc+uY1
Population is decreasing in all four of California’s largest cities.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/california-popu...

And house prices are declining in Seattle.

https://www.king5.com/article/money/economy/seattle-housing-...

Why live in a high cost city when more jobs are remote?

>>scarfa+vH2
> Population is decreasing in all four of California’s largest cities.

Again, this is a "It's too crowded so no one comes here anymore" problem, not a "California sucks, let's leave" problem. If you can't make it economically in SF or LA, move to somewhere like Atlanta where making it economically is easier. Housing prices fall a bit, from $2 million for a starter house to $1.9 million, but they just as quickly go back up as well. If you look at a population chart for California, you'll see this huge increase in the last 80 years that is finally tapering off. Did everyone honestly believe that California would or could grow forever? Equilibrium means that SF will shrink and grow around some stable population point.

> And house prices are declining in Seattle.

Read the article. They went up 20% last year and are now down 2-5% this year. And again, you are doing a lot of wishful thinking, since inventory is super low right now and people are struggling to buy houses even if they have the money. I actually wish your story was true, but it simply isn't.

> Why live in a high cost city when more jobs are remote?

I work remote in Seattle and love it (but my wife has to RTO, so we still need to be here). But I guess if someone isn't great at math, an LCOL city is probably a better choice anyways, since they don't have to think so hard about the math and can justify their choices with simple click-bait-style narratives.

>>seanmc+Jk3
> work remote in Seattle and love it (but my wife has to RTO, so we still need to be here). But I guess if someone isn't great at math, an LCOL city is probably a better choice anyways, since they don't have to think so hard about the math and can justify their choices with simple click-bait-style narratives.

So exactly how does it make more financial sense to live somewhere that is more expensive than somewhere much less expensive making the same money?

What’s the mortgage on that 2 million dollar home compared to mine?

And I’ve been to Seattle a number of times. That’s where my employer’s headquarters is located. It’s a dreary place.