zlacker

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1. UncleM+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-17 09:17:25
Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any of the scare-quoted terms do this? I can't see any.
replies(6): >>the_gi+Q >>wyclif+L4 >>deadpa+jb >>concor+ah >>naaski+kn >>deadpa+r21
2. the_gi+Q[view] [source] 2022-12-17 09:26:27
>>UncleM+(OP)
Are you talking about Newspeak? What you describe does not sound like what I think "orwellian" usually means.
replies(1): >>UncleM+j1
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3. UncleM+j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 09:30:53
>>the_gi+Q
The term "Orwellian" in describing language comes directly from the properties of Newspeak.

"Orwellian" can mean other things when describing state power or surveillance technology, but in this context it is being used to describe language so the connection to Newspeak is the relevant one.

replies(1): >>nopeno+w3
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4. nopeno+w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 09:57:14
>>UncleM+j1
It's straightforwardly a broad term and you have no basis for your nonsense gatekeeping.
replies(1): >>UncleM+he
5. wyclif+L4[view] [source] 2022-12-17 10:13:24
>>UncleM+(OP)
The problem for me was never that Twitter had their own in-house term for shadowbanning. It was that they obfuscated and hid behind the term in order to avoid accusations of shadowbanning. It's like saying "this is not a sub sandwich, it's a hoagie!"
replies(1): >>Maraza+lb
6. deadpa+jb[view] [source] 2022-12-17 11:30:26
>>UncleM+(OP)
No, "Orwellian" means almost the opposite: Winston and Julia are perfectly capable of thinking dissident thoughts, despite being immersed in Ingsoc. "Orwellian" refers to dominating people to the degree that you can force them to use the words you specify and make them say things that they know aren't true.
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7. Maraza+lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 11:30:32
>>wyclif+L4
There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts.

What Twitter did was not shadowbanning - other people could see the posts.

Pretending it is shadowbanning is bad faith arguing of the worst kind.

replies(1): >>naaski+sk
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8. UncleM+he[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 12:08:26
>>nopeno+w3
It isn’t gatekeeping. “Orwellian” has a negative connotation. It is unreasonable to describe ordinary internal jargon as such.
replies(1): >>nopeno+4J1
9. concor+ah[view] [source] 2022-12-17 12:44:38
>>UncleM+(OP)
"Orwellian language" likely comes from this essay: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...
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10. naaski+sk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 13:14:09
>>Maraza+lb
> There is a very well understood definition for shadowbanning - only the poster can see their own posts.

Except that's not how most people understand the term. Terminology is defined by its usage, so if you're in the minority of how this term is used, you've lost. We already had this debate about hacker/cracker over 20 years ago. Hacker is still here, so get used to the broader meaning of shadowbanning.

replies(1): >>Maraza+Tp
11. naaski+kn[view] [source] 2022-12-17 13:42:45
>>UncleM+(OP)
> Orwellian does not just mean changing terms or using euphemisms. It is about terms that make the expression of undesirable thoughts actually impossible. Do any of the scare-quoted terms do this? I can't see any.

Per [1]:

    "Orwellian" is an adjective describing a situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free and open society. It denotes an attitude and a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda, surveillance, disinformation, denial of truth (doublethink), and manipulation of the past [...]
The label in this context doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwellian

replies(1): >>UncleM+ur1
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12. Maraza+Tp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 14:04:34
>>naaski+sk
Let me google that for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+shadowban&oq=defin...

verb: shadowban - block (a user) from a social media site or online forum without their knowledge, typically by making their posts and comments no longer visible to other users.

replies(1): >>naaski+Aw
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13. naaski+Aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 14:57:22
>>Maraza+Tp
Yes, which matches exactly what Twitter did, and which is how most people understand the term. Or did you miss the part where they delisted some accounts from being discoverable by search.

The way Twitter defines shadowban is more narrow than that.

replies(1): >>Maraza+fA
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14. Maraza+fA[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 15:23:28
>>naaski+Aw
" We do not shadow ban. You are always able to see the tweets from accounts you follow (although you may have to do more work to find them, like go directly to their profile). "

They literally wrote a blog post about it 4 years ago[1]. This wasn't hidden. Anyone who is "shocked" by Twitter's definition of shadow banning (which, in my opinion aligns with what I posted anyways) is doing performative outrage of an insincere nature.

[1] https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2018/Setting-t...

replies(1): >>naaski+eD
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15. naaski+eD[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 15:41:17
>>Maraza+fA
Twitter is free to invent whatever narrow definition of shadowbanning they want, and we are free to call out their obfuscation for the bullshit it is.

Language is about effective communication. Right now we're all trying to have an important conversation about relevant social issues which requires a common understanding. You cited the common understanding, I pointed out how Twitter engaged in practices covered by that common understanding, and that should be the end of that. Can we move on now?

Instead of bikeshedding over this irrelevant minutae, engage with the actual substance of the discussions, like whether they should shadowban in the way they've been doing it, whether there should be limits to moderation policies for online public squares, what the guidelines for censoring speech should look like, whether to deplatform people entirely or merely deprioritize their speech, etc.

replies(1): >>Maraza+wQ
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16. Maraza+wQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 16:47:52
>>naaski+eD
You've invented your own "common understanding"

They don't prevent people seeing tweets of anyone. If you follow soneone you see their tweets, if you dont follow them but gonto their profile you see their tweets.

Tweets are universally publically viewable. The policies they use are not secret.

Trying to start a conversation about their secret shadowbanning policy is a dead end as the policy is not shadow banning and it is not secret.

replies(1): >>naaski+501
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17. naaski+501[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 17:37:10
>>Maraza+wQ
And still you persist. Go read the definition you provided again. Then read my immediate reply where I pointed out they delisted people from search. That is literally a case where Twitter was "making their posts and comments no longer visible to other users" and they did so "without their knowledge".

That is shadowbanning by your own definition, and each ban was not disclosed and thus done in secret, because that's what it means to be shadowbanned.

There is a perfectly obvious interpretation of the language being used to describe this situation, and all you're doing is adding noise because people aren't using terms in the way you want while ignoring the substance. That's textbook bad faith arguing, which ironically is what you were accusing the original poster of doing.

replies(1): >>acdha+YT1
18. deadpa+r21[view] [source] 2022-12-17 17:48:59
>>UncleM+(OP)
Orwell, from "Politics and the English Language" [0]:

> Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive.

[0] https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...

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19. UncleM+ur1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 20:14:47
>>naaski+kn
In the context of authoritarian states and surveillance technology that definition matches. But this is specifically about language and jargon. Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda."
replies(1): >>naaski+Jm2
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20. nopeno+4J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 22:16:18
>>UncleM+he
If you disagree, then make an actual argument for the content of your position. This subjective word policing is pathetic and unconvincing.
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21. acdha+YT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 23:52:04
>>naaski+501
> That is literally a case where Twitter was "making their posts and comments no longer visible to other users" and they did so "without their knowledge".

This continues to be incorrect: their posts are visible to anyone on the internet and show up to their followers. The only thing twitter is not doing is having their algorithm highlight them to people who weren’t following them or participating in a conversation with them. That doesn’t fit any common definition of shadow-banning.

replies(1): >>naaski+n72
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22. naaski+n72[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 02:04:49
>>acdha+YT1
> This continues to be incorrect: their posts are visible to anyone on the internet and show up to their followers

No, I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: if you use Twitter's search to try to find a delisted user on Twitter, you can't find them. Sometimes you can't even @ them. This fits the general definition of shadowbanning that the other poster provided, wherein their content cannot be found using Twitter, thereby that qualifies as being shadowbanned on Twitter.

The fact that you can sometimes find that content via other means is totally irrelevant.

replies(1): >>acdha+ia2
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23. acdha+ia2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 02:34:36
>>naaski+n72
> No, I don't know how many times I have to repeat this

Your frustration stems from angrily telling people something is wrong based on your misunderstanding of a term. You’re welcome not to like the practice or lobby against it but you’re just signing up for frustration trying to get everyone to switch to your redefinition.

replies(1): >>naaski+q13
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24. naaski+Jm2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 05:31:32
>>UncleM+ur1
> Even if we decide that my definition is nonsense, it is clear that using terms like "escalation" internally isn't "a brutal policy of draconian control by propaganda."

Sure, innocuous sounding words like "rendition" would never be reappropriated as code for something more sinister, right?

Seems to me that innocuous sounding jargon actually makes Orwellian doublethink much easier to swallow. Like a frog in a slowly heated pot of water, you get exposed to and acclimatize to progressively more problematic uses of power until you simultaneously believe that you are a patriot upholding citizen's rights while routinely violating them.

I'm not really sure why you think this process can't happen in a private company.

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25. naaski+q13[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 14:16:51
>>acdha+ia2
> You’re welcome not to like the practice or lobby against it but you’re just signing up for frustration trying to get everyone to switch to your redefinition.

It's not my redefinition, it's literally the definition the other poster provided which they discovered via Google, and the application of that definition matches how thousands of tech and laypeople are using it in this conversation, and how the media is covering it. But, you do you.

Finally, I'm not sure where your ability to surmise my emotional state based only on text comes from, but I think it needs some tuning.

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