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[parent] [thread] 27 comments
1. inambe+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-09-22 15:47:30
I wonder how people continue to work at Facebook. I know they tend to have the highest salaries from the FAANG groups, but still. We, as engineers and builders, have the responsibility to think critically about how the things we are working on will be used.
replies(10): >>shmde+F2 >>stickf+U3 >>blep_+Fb >>fallin+Ig >>nvarsj+9q >>foobie+Gw >>random+qX >>lavven+Xc1 >>intelV+GG1 >>baby+Pg2
2. shmde+F2[view] [source] 2022-09-22 15:57:13
>>inambe+(OP)
They definitely know, keep silent till they are on meta's payroll. Once they resign their moral compass suddenly aligns correctly and they start speaking out about how fb is bad blah blah. Quite pathetic to be honest.
3. stickf+U3[view] [source] 2022-09-22 16:01:26
>>inambe+(OP)
I wonder how people can continue to post questions like this to HN, when there are billions of people who happily use Facebook. I would think it's our responsibility to look outside of our narrow information bubble.
replies(2): >>hhmc+yg >>lostga+1d1
4. blep_+Fb[view] [source] 2022-09-22 16:36:29
>>inambe+(OP)
Earlier this year, I had a recruiter invite me to interview there, and I made an attempt at convincing myself with reasoning like:

- they're going to do their evil thing anyway, may as well show up and intentionally do it marginally worse

- they're going to pay someone large sums of money, may as well be me

- I increasingly believe this whole industry is net evil overall, and large sums of money mean I can leave it sooner

- also, it was their VR thing, and if it was a VR thing at literally any other company I would be excited about that because VR is at least conceptually cool

These are not particularly good arguments, and that's why I don't work there now. But statistically, I can imagine a few people who we would otherwise categorize as non-evil actually convince themselves with arguments like these, and when you're casting as wide a net as Facebook does, a few is all you need.

replies(2): >>JohnFe+Kc >>lostga+Kh1
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5. JohnFe+Kc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:42:32
>>blep_+Fb
I think those arguments would only be persuasive to someone who is actively looking for a way to paper over their ethical concerns and take the money. They wouldn't be persuasive for a person trying to be true to their ethical stance.
replies(1): >>blep_+Mf
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6. blep_+Mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:56:21
>>JohnFe+Kc
This is an accurate description of my thought processes at the time.
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7. hhmc+yg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 16:59:03
>>stickf+U3
If the original claim is that 'facebook is damaging to (and beyond) its users', then the response 'but it has _many_ users' isn't much of a defense..
replies(1): >>stickf+3o
8. fallin+Ig[view] [source] 2022-09-22 17:00:12
>>inambe+(OP)
Still say FB did nothing wrong. Maybe it's bad for you, but so is TV news, sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and fast food. As an engineer I have the responsibility to give my users what they want, not be some moralizing nag.

edit: I mean nothing wrong in terms of the product it delivers

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9. stickf+3o[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 17:32:51
>>hhmc+yg
I think the original claim is that "facebook is damaging to some users". You could say the same about salt. People still work in salt mines.
replies(2): >>ziddoa+mM >>lostga+id1
10. nvarsj+9q[view] [source] 2022-09-22 17:42:34
>>inambe+(OP)
As an engineer, you should love FB. They had a large hand in breaking up the lowball salary cartel maintained by Google and Apple, and set a precedent in the industry for paying engineers well. As far as societal impact - it's debatable whether it's a net good or not.
11. foobie+Gw[view] [source] 2022-09-22 18:15:20
>>inambe+(OP)
In most engineer discussion contexts, the second the topic of how obviously evil, manipulative, and socially destructive the social, gig, and ad companies that pay well comes up, the people who work or worked for them or aspire to make Facebook/Google/Uber/... comp packages will go to great lengths to defend them. It is really incredible how transparent it is.

"Hey, there are crack dealers, people selling cigarettes, etc. Why are you singling out Facebook?"

It's almost like they know the issue, but think that somehow the existence of even worse scumbags provides them with ethics aircover.

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12. ziddoa+mM[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 19:31:33
>>stickf+3o
I'm not really able to wrap my head around your argument.

If it's damaging to some percentage of users, having more users means it damages more people.

Is your argument that this is okay because some people also put their health at risk being salt miners?

replies(1): >>stickf+Ae1
13. random+qX[view] [source] 2022-09-22 20:34:34
>>inambe+(OP)
No doubt they do think hard about how their product will be used and ensure that the customer is as happy as possible. Money is on the line. It is production of the product that produces undesirable externalities.

Frankly, how does anyone continue to work in any job? They all bring undesirable externalities of some sort. As a farmer, I'm one of the most evil people on the planet, or so they say, due to the externalities created by agriculture. Working for Facebook would be a huge moral improvement. But, what are you going to do?

replies(1): >>OJFord+Er1
14. lavven+Xc1[view] [source] 2022-09-22 22:06:10
>>inambe+(OP)
Playing video games or trading have similiar effects or worse. Engineers who build those platforms should question themselves too.
replies(1): >>Unposs+mf1
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15. lostga+1d1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:06:54
>>stickf+U3
That's, uh...pretty ignorant of the fact that most of the people in the IT world are infinitely more aware of how damaging FB and most social media sites are than the average person. Come on.
replies(1): >>stickf+bf1
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16. lostga+id1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:08:16
>>stickf+3o
LMFAO...yeah, you could say the same about Heroin. And Heroin is actually damaging to users.

You can pick any random thing, compare it to any other random thing, and get similar or opposing results - or anything in between, because those things aren't correlated or comparable in any way. :P

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17. stickf+Ae1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:16:29
>>ziddoa+mM
Can you name something that is not damaging to someone? Excessive salt consumption is linked over a million annual deaths worldwide. Even water kills thousands of people per year (drowning).

If your rule is "we can't have things that may hurt some people" then you're going to live in a pretty bland world. Gonna be especially tough without water.

replies(2): >>ziddoa+li1 >>raxxor+pF2
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18. stickf+bf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:20:24
>>lostga+1d1
Please tell me about the medical and sociological research you do in your IT job.
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19. Unposs+mf1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:21:34
>>lavven+Xc1
That depends on the video game:

https://www.verywellmind.com/video-games-could-treat-mental-...

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-health-benefits-o...

https://english.umd.edu/research-innovation/journals/interpo...

EDIT: formatting

replies(1): >>lavven+934
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20. lostga+Kh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:38:51
>>blep_+Fb
Thank you for a realistic, grounded, evidence-based discussion of this. I've seen quite a few comments in this thread that have made me shake my head pretty hard.

Here's the thing: anyone who is in IT, especially programming; is going to be well-aware of the...I don't want to say 'evil', but I will at least say questionably ethical nature of Facebook's workings.

Anyone working there had to compromise some level of ethics for the profit they acquire from it.

replies(1): >>arghno+ZW3
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21. ziddoa+li1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 22:43:36
>>stickf+Ae1
>Excessive salt consumption is linked over a million annual deaths worldwide. Even water kills thousands of people per year (drowning)

And we have people and organizations that try to reduce the amount of deaths from those things. Raising awareness, passing laws, etc.

>If your rule is "we can't have things that may hurt some people" then you're going to live in a pretty bland world.

I only asked for clarification on your argument. But, no, that's not my "rule". I just think that if we can reduce harm, it's nice to do that where possible.

>Gonna be especially tough without water.

Come on. Your whole last sentence is ridiculous. The poster questioned why someone would work at Facebook. That is not the equivalent of saying "we can't have things that may hurt some people" and it's so far removed from your water/drowning scenario that I can't tell if you're being serious.

replies(1): >>stickf+G52
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22. OJFord+Er1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-22 23:51:15
>>random+qX
> Frankly, how does anyone continue to work in any job? They all bring undesirable externalities of some sort. As a farmer, I'm one of the most evil people on the planet

Oh God, I write software that helps farmers do a better job!

23. intelV+GG1[view] [source] 2022-09-23 01:54:59
>>inambe+(OP)
Most SWEs I know at FAANG justify it by deliberately half assing the code (e.g. Fuchsia) to collect a big salary while also not being responsible for building evil things. It's a decent compromise imo.
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24. stickf+G52[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 06:14:45
>>ziddoa+li1
> The poster questioned why someone would work at Facebook.

I thought my answer was pretty easy to interpret, but I will spell it out: Because the vast majority of people who use Facebook enrich their lives with it.

Spelling it out even further: Just like Facebook employees, the people who work in salt mines, or build swimming pools, go to work each day because they think about the vast majority of people satisfied by their product, not about the small minority of people injured by it.

I don't work at Facebook, but if I did, the answer to "How do you sleep?" would be "Like a baby."

25. baby+Pg2[view] [source] 2022-09-23 08:24:12
>>inambe+(OP)
Not sure if you’re asking seriously but I guess I was one of them so I’ll provide a serious answer: I never agreed with HN’s hate and always believed (and still believe now) that fb is a net positive for the world.
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26. raxxor+pF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 12:13:18
>>stickf+Ae1
> Can you name something that is not damaging to someone?

Kind of a bad excuse to be honest. I do think the damage is exaggerated and at some point users are responsible for themselves and their media consumption and many are probably happy with that.

I don't use Facebook and in my county Whatsapp is sadly very widely spread and it is noticeable that people express concern about missing something if they don't install it.

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27. arghno+ZW3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 19:04:48
>>lostga+Kh1
My guess is that the personal code of ethics that people run with who work there or work for other companies that produce goods that are bad for people (e.g., tobacco) is that their belief in individual choice is the primary factor.

In this way, the poor choices people make is not the responsibility of the person offering the choice, it's the responsibility of the chooser. You can sell heroine this way and sleep like a baby.

It's not totally crazy if you think what you're offering is not coercive and that people can and should look out for their best interests. This doesn't work for my ethics because I think, basically, that some people aren't so great at looking out for their own best interests and can be tricked or seduced into hurting themselves. If someone is weak in whatever way that they can be tricked into hurting themselves, this is a soft form of coercion.

Ethically though it's not totally cut and dried. Pretty much everyone engaged in behavior where they might come out ahead relative to another (e.g., buying/selling a car, aiming for a promotion or raise, etc). I work for a company that sells shiny baubles and people buy stuff they can't really afford partly because of our slick marketing. I feel this is better than working for Meta, but is it? I don't know. Being ethical while living under an unethical system is almost impossible and requires significant sacrifice. If I'm being honest, I'm not willing to make that sacrifice, so I'm already compromising my ethics to _some_ level too. I guess we all just pick our levels.

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28. lavven+934[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-23 19:37:58
>>Unposs+mf1
Video games are addictive at least the ones that you play for hunders of hours, I know from myself.
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