zlacker

[parent] [thread] 35 comments
1. manuel+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-09-07 12:56:52
I'm okay with removing someone from the internet if their business is to harass and dox people.
replies(1): >>firstS+F
2. firstS+F[view] [source] 2022-09-07 13:01:33
>>manuel+(OP)
Absolutely. When there is a due process and it is done with the accordance of law that we are all supposed to abide. Not by unilateral decision of a tech CEO/Staff.
replies(5): >>Cr4shM+k3 >>dpkirc+o6 >>ohgodp+c9 >>HereIG+Bk >>klyrs+jo
◧◩
3. Cr4shM+k3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 13:16:40
>>firstS+F
That's the problem though. Legal gears move slowly, and you know that Kiwifarms would've kept destroying people's lives and driving people to suicide until they got shut down. I would've preferred actual legal action rather than companies dropping KF because they're bad for business, but the end goal of getting them shut down is the same.
replies(2): >>HereIG+Mn >>redeem+Zu
◧◩
4. dpkirc+o6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 13:31:28
>>firstS+F
I'm not comfortable with people being forced at metaphorical gunpoint to host or deliver objectionable content, and that appears to be what you're proposing here. If we want governments to mandate due process standards, they can be the ones to host that content as a provider-of-last-resort.
◧◩
5. ohgodp+c9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 13:43:51
>>firstS+F
Do you believe that being on the Internet Archive is a god-given right and that only a judge should be able to tell IA to delete the work that IA chooses to do on their own?

If you're a shithead in a club, you get kicked out. If you're a shithead with your family, you get kicked out. If you're a shithead on the internet, you also get kicked out.

replies(1): >>firstS+Na
◧◩◪
6. firstS+Na[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 13:49:57
>>ohgodp+c9
I do not believe any shithead should be given a pass. My comment was mostly about who decides who is a shithead. If tomorrow someone famous/outreaching enough on twitter/etc. decides that I am a shithead, should google close my account?
replies(4): >>jjuliu+Gc >>ohgodp+Af >>phpist+Zm >>tssva+NF
◧◩◪◨
7. jjuliu+Gc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 13:58:09
>>firstS+Na
If you were to host your own forum, and people began using it to dox trans individuals with the explicit goal of harassing them, how would you react and what action(s), if any, would you take?
replies(2): >>caeril+Ig >>HereIG+il
◧◩◪◨
8. ohgodp+Af[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:11:42
>>firstS+Na
Yeah ? In the same way that if you're in my home and someone comes to me telling me you're being a shithead, and there's verifiable proof that you're being a shithead at the very moment, you're going out.
◧◩◪◨⬒
9. caeril+Ig[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:18:28
>>jjuliu+Gc
Probably the same actions taken on antifa forums that are used to dox Trump-voting boomers with the explicit goal of harassing them: nothing.

IA is not being "bad", here. They're just being inconsistent. Either doxing/harassment is casus belli to scrub content, or it's not.

replies(2): >>manuel+Ei >>klyrs+7p
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
10. manuel+Ei[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:28:54
>>caeril+Ig
> Probably the same actions taken on antifa forums that are used to dox Trump-voting boomers with the explicit goal of harassing them: nothing.

We do know that Kiwifarms was doxing people, but I would like to see proof of these "antifa forums", please.

"Antifa" has become such an umbrella term, it's almost mythological at this point.

◧◩
11. HereIG+Bk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:36:57
>>firstS+F
There is no process to be had here though. Harassing is and always was against the site rules (as is interacting at all really) and "doxxing" (let alone post publicly available info) isn't illegal.
replies(1): >>jjuliu+mn
◧◩◪◨⬒
12. HereIG+il[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:39:38
>>jjuliu+Gc
I don't understand the point of your example because that isn't what is happening here. Harassing is against the rules and will get you banned.
replies(1): >>jjuliu+ao
◧◩◪◨
13. phpist+Zm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:47:28
>>firstS+Na
>>>decides that I am a shithead, should google close my account?

Google (and facebook, twitter, paypal, etc) does that with regularity today, every once in awhile someone with reach in the tech community has it happen to them, some programmer or researcher, etc and it makes the news here but political commentators are banned every day off google sites because some one with enough influence on twitter targeted them for being a "shithead" in their view.

◧◩◪
14. jjuliu+mn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:50:01
>>HereIG+Bk
Ah, right, I almost forgot - if a thing's legal then there are never any negative ramifications that come from it and everything's sunshine and roses!
replies(1): >>HereIG+3A
◧◩◪
15. HereIG+Mn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:52:01
>>Cr4shM+k3
Who's lives and what deaths? Most of the (3) people claimed to have died, didn't claim anything of the sort. (in fact the one that activists like to bring up most, who is actually dead, literally blamed the mental health system and being made homeless the day before) The one person who did blame them seems to have died without leaving any proof for official records of both the Japanese or American governments. Just the word of a friend and a former (as in even before death) employer.

What legal actions could anybody went after? They don't allow illegal activities and don't even allow interaction from the site. Even talking about it is banned. Why do you think so many attempts to take them down have failed. They follow the law and openly work with it if something illegal does happen... Including the FBI.

replies(1): >>jjuliu+Zp
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
16. jjuliu+ao[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:53:15
>>HereIG+il
You are demonstrating a clear failure to understand not only the magnitude of what occurs, and can occur, when someone is doxx'd, but also KiwiFarms' history as a party to specific incidents of suicide and external harassment as a result of said doxx'ing on that site.
replies(1): >>HereIG+yu
◧◩
17. klyrs+jo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:53:57
>>firstS+F
If somebody breaks into your house, you should wait for due process with accordance of law. Homeowners shouldn't make unilateral decisions about who is and is not legally allowed in their home.
replies(1): >>gruez+Kp
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
18. klyrs+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 14:57:29
>>caeril+Ig
The closest I've seen to this in real life is people pawing through 1/6 photos to identify criminals and report them to the police. I don't hang out on antifa forums tho, care to enlighten us where that's happening?
◧◩◪
19. gruez+Kp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:00:13
>>klyrs+jo
except in this case, the owner of the "house" (website) is fine with the visitors. Instead, another organization (the HOA?) wants to kick out the owner because they don't like the visitors that he's inviting.
replies(1): >>klyrs+1z
◧◩◪◨
20. jjuliu+Zp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:01:24
>>HereIG+Mn
Do you, or do you not, feel that it is OK to doxx individuals in the manner that occurs on KiwiFarms? Why or why not?
replies(1): >>HereIG+6x
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
21. HereIG+yu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:21:28
>>jjuliu+ao
Doxxing is not illegal, if posting publicly available info can even be called that. The only suicide that was actually blamed on the site by the victim, is someone nobody can show any official or direct evidence of's death. The second of the 3 alleged deaths, literally blamed the mental health system and becoming homeless the day before.. no mentions of kiwifarms.. It was online "allies" after the fact that made the link among efforts to get the site shut down in the past. All of the claims largely cases of "if you say something enough times people will start repeating it"

This whole mess has some real rabbit holes, but anyone who does a little research will find a lot of the claims used to drum up hysteria are quite wanting in the way of facts or proof.

replies(1): >>dragon+Zw
◧◩◪
22. redeem+Zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:23:03
>>Cr4shM+k3
you think they are just gonna go "oh well it was a good run, let me go volunteer at the soup kitchen now"?
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
23. dragon+Zw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:31:47
>>HereIG+yu
> Doxxing is not illegal

This is true, in some jurisdictions, in the same sense that it is true that homicide is not illegal.

Doxxing with particular intent is illegal in those jurisdictions; e. g., California where Penal Code § 653.2 was adopted specifically to address harassment by doxxing.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

replies(1): >>HereIG+Lz
◧◩◪◨⬒
24. HereIG+6x[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:32:34
>>jjuliu+Zp
My feelings are irrelevant to my arguing. No, or at least not unless there was a good reason... More importantly, doxxing isn't illegal and is done by major media and orgs. Not to mention it seems like ~95% of what is being called doxxing here is posting publicly available (usually posted the the person themselves) info.

And in the context of KF, harassment and even interacting is against the rules. Attempting to do anything illegal, making threats or swatting etc are literal instant bans with your info being handed over to law on request.

replies(1): >>jjuliu+ZC
◧◩◪◨
25. klyrs+1z[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:41:05
>>gruez+Kp
Point is, "the law" moves slower than emergencies unfold. Individuals and corporations have the right to enact and enforce their own rules on their own property, within reason.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
26. HereIG+Lz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:43:52
>>dragon+Zw
There are exceptions but the point still mostly stands. Secondly, "with intent" the rules of the site explicitly forbid harassing or interacting so that's going to be quite a claim, even in those rare exceptions, to make let alone prove. Plus, a lot of what we are talking about isn't likely to qualify anyway since most of it is simply posting publicly available information, usually from the person themselves and still available from their accounts/SM etc.
replies(1): >>dragon+HH
◧◩◪◨
27. HereIG+3A[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:45:10
>>jjuliu+mn
Well that kind of is important if you want to force it offline legally!
replies(1): >>jjuliu+7D
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
28. jjuliu+ZC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:57:43
>>HereIG+6x
>No, or at least not unless there was a good reason...

There was a follow-up: Why? KiwiFarms clearly allows this doxxing to occur on a daily basis, and I know that you know this. While it's not illegal, if you don't feel that doxxing is generally OK, why do you feel that it's OK for KF users to continue to go to the extent that they do?

>More importantly, doxxing isn't illegal and is done by major media and orgs

Two wrongs do not make a right.

>Not to mention it seems like ~95% of what is being called doxxing here is posting publicly available (usually posted the the person themselves) info.

There is a significant difference there. A lot of the information that is publicly available is information that has to be compiled. Someone has to go to the effort to look through all of the nooks and crannies to obtain what they want. KiwiFarms saves time and compiles general publicly available data that might be "difficult" to obtain to some degree, often times alongside otherwise private photos and information that individuals might not want widely disseminated, even if they did share it. This compiled data can make it easier and more likely for bad actors to do harm than if they had to go to greater lengths to obtain that info.

The fact that massive, multi-page forums threads can exist with tons of users providing all of this data and talking about these people is enough to cause mental damage to the targets of these threads. Actions need not be direct nor illegal to be harmful, and you know just as well as I do that there have been plenty of examples of people claiming harm from the existence of such threads.

Even if the behavior is not allowed and banned, the environment is still rife to encourage it. The further you allow people to go, legal or not, the more comfortable they're going to get with the boundaries that they push. This is evidenced by the historical instances of swatting and direct harassment that have stemmed from KF despite it's own rules against it, even apparently as recently as a few weeks ago.

>My feelings are irrelevant to my arguing.

That might be the case, but arguing in support of KF here is essentially arguing in support of what I just described above.

◧◩◪◨⬒
29. jjuliu+7D[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 15:58:27
>>HereIG+3A
It's perfectly legal for one to opt not to host something, or provide DDoS protection for it, for any reason they choose.
replies(1): >>HereIG+EO1
◧◩◪◨
30. tssva+NF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 16:12:33
>>firstS+Na
If Google wants to, yes.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
31. dragon+HH[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 16:21:02
>>HereIG+Lz
> the rules of the site explicitly forbid harassing or interacting so that's going to be quite a claim

Not really; showing that rules like that are conscious fig leaves and actually indicators of knowledge and intent is... not at all uncommon. Lots of sites taken down by law enforcement for deliberate facilitation of prostitution or human trafficking had “don’t use this platform for prostitution/trafficking” rules, too.

replies(1): >>HereIG+XJ1
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧
32. HereIG+XJ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 20:49:11
>>dragon+HH
Not really. Those rules are and have been enforced quite strictly. In order to show intent you're going to have to do a lot better than just saying they posted it so it's their fault. And again, we are mostly talking about public info that the person themselves has openly posted online. That's not private information no matter how you look at it.
replies(1): >>jbuhbj+164
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
33. HereIG+EO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 21:09:38
>>jjuliu+7D
This is what is so scary about the hysterical fictional narrative misinforming so many. people generally don't have the first clue about the stakes and what really happened.

They weren't being hosted by CF, they were getting protection against illegal DDoS attacks. CF DDoS protection is an infrastructure service. Infrastructure level services picking and choosing who is allowed and not allowed, is a very dangerous thing. Such action quickly risk unraveling the entire net.

replies(1): >>jjuliu+Il2
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
34. jjuliu+Il2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-07 23:51:41
>>HereIG+EO1
>CF DDoS protection is an infrastructure service. Infrastructure level services picking and choosing who is allowed and not allowed, is a very dangerous thing. Such action quickly risk unraveling the entire net.

How old are you? Surely you're aware that this has been an option for all infrastructure level services since the inception of the world wide web? And that this is by no means the first (there have been thousands upon thousands of decisions made like this, large and small), nor the last, time this will happen? And that in the 30+ years of the web's existence these kinds of infrastructure level services have been executing these options, the "entire net" has yet to "unravel" and sites like KF and 8chan, et al continue to find homes on the internet?

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨
35. jbuhbj+164[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-08 14:06:10
>>HereIG+XJ1
On the one hand, we have freely shared information. On the other hand, meta information obtained by digital stalking (or, in some cases, literal stalking). The later is absolutely not ok.

I agree regarding the freely available information (which often involved self-made drama). There is nothing bad about archiving it per se. With one interjection: some of this information is decades-old. While the right to forget does not exist on the internet, if people reflected on things, admitted they made mistakes and changed their perspective, it should be possible for any sensible webmaster/reader, to allow some kind of redemption.

This was exactly the case with byuu - he realized past mistakes, openly admitted and wanted a somewhat fresh start. But KW's webmaster did not allow it. At this point I percieved KF as openly cruel and kind of showing their true colors.

replies(1): >>richbe+1I5
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦▧▨◲
36. richbe+1I5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-08 20:47:45
>>jbuhbj+164
> But KW's webmaster did not allow it.

From what I've seen it wasn't as straightforward as that. The operator, Null, shared the email exchange and there seems to have been less than 24 hours between Byuu's first message and his last.

Null's last message was this, after which he went to bed (apparently, idk the timezones involved in this). It doesn't seem like a "no".

> I feel like you're being genuine. There's a fear here that you're just trying to prank me to show people "look, Josh just wants money", but it's one of the small subsets of concerns at play here. > > So hear me out: Send me your resume, I'll make you a counter offer.

https://archive.ph/R1oRN

[go to top]