zlacker

[parent] [thread] 31 comments
1. fulafe+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-07-26 07:50:08
Yes, lots of Linux devices apply it like that today: You can't use your banking app or consume DRM crippled media on your Android phone if you have root or run a open source Android distribution.
replies(1): >>Aeolun+G
2. Aeolun+G[view] [source] 2022-07-26 07:58:53
>>fulafe+(OP)
> if you have root

Because god forbid you have control of your own PC?

replies(6): >>Ycombi+41 >>nptelj+74 >>Arnt+F7 >>kahncl+A8 >>newscl+0h >>api+pv
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3. Ycombi+41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 08:02:36
>>Aeolun+G
Because if you have control, so many numerous other parties.
replies(2): >>feanar+Q2 >>palata+83
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4. feanar+Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 08:19:35
>>Ycombi+41
This doesn't follow at all. Those other parties cannot authenticate as me.
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5. palata+83[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 08:24:04
>>Ycombi+41
Those are independent. Having root access does not mean that other parties do, but more importantly, NOT having root does not mean AT ALL that other parties don't.
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6. nptelj+74[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 08:34:01
>>Aeolun+G
Yep! Basically, it's safer if you don't own your PC. Think about users with a million toolbars and Bonzi Buddy installed.

Of course, the system for it is rudimentary, and puts a disproportionate amount of control in the hands of providers. And that works very well for them too.

replies(2): >>adev_+9r >>userbi+CE
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7. Arnt+F7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 09:11:57
>>Aeolun+G
Uhm, these things don't really take away your control, rather, they shift it from you to you.

The software you boot sets up some state and then toggles a bit, and after that something can't be changed. The state is secure against much modification after that time, but not before that time.

The "you" that boots the device are in control, and the "you" that uses the device after that have exactly what "you" set up at boot time, neither more nor less. If both "you" are the same person, then there's no loss of control.

But of course they're often not really the same person. If you want to boot a Microsoft-signed image, the party that boots is more or less Microsoft, not you personally. But in that case, you also want to use that Microsoft-signed OS, right? So the shift towards boot-time control is then a shift from mostly-Microsoft use-time control to mostly-Microsoft boot-time control. Mostly Microsoft here, mostly Microsoft there, even if the two mostlies aren't quite the same percentage it's difficult to regard this as a significant loss of control.

replies(1): >>raxxor+pb
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8. kahncl+A8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 09:20:52
>>Aeolun+G
I think this is more for Android phones, and preventing a malicious app on your phone from using the root access to hijack data from your banking app.
replies(2): >>ajsnig+nq >>fulafe+cv
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9. raxxor+pb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 09:47:14
>>Arnt+F7
This is false and just redefining control.
replies(1): >>Arnt+Se
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10. Arnt+Se[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 10:22:17
>>raxxor+pb
How so? Redefines from what to what? Please elaborate.

Perhaps you mean that if you, as owner and legitimate user of a device, are able to perform a particular change only during a brief window of time rather than at any time of your choosing, then that limits your control over the device? If so, then my answer is yes, certainly it does. But it also limits the access of anyone who impersonates you (such as the evil exploity javascript I make your browser execute).

replies(1): >>feanar+Eq
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11. newscl+0h[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 10:48:18
>>Aeolun+G
For me that’s a problem for the average user? That’s everyone else’s problem that idiots don’t care to control their technology and need big tech to do so with an iron fist
replies(1): >>acdha+3o
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12. acdha+3o[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 11:48:51
>>newscl+0h
Calling the problem is “idiots” is a cognitive trap which prevents you from meaningfully dealing with it. Everyone is at risk from zero-days, almost anyone can be phished (yes, this includes you), many people have no way or time to investigate whether some well-known vendor is misrepresenting their product, and even security experts have to trust other people on a daily basis because they don’t have time to reverse-engineer every software update. Most people who get snide about this are a single malicious package in their favorite programming language away from a big mess!

The best progress we’ve seen in decades came from most people using locked-down phone operating systems, followed by stricter desktop OSes. If you don’t like that trajectory, you should be focused on how to get the benefits with other trade offs. One of the first steps is respecting people enough to understand their needs rather than calling them idiots.

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13. ajsnig+nq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:05:48
>>kahncl+A8
Well that's the problem.... the next step would be requiring users to use MS Edge, because a malicious version of firefox could capture/modify banking/transaction data. Want to pay bills? Give money to microsoft first.
replies(1): >>kahncl+ih3
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14. feanar+Eq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:07:32
>>Arnt+Se
You're wrong because the bootloader is more often locked than not, and there are various other nefarious controls in place that prevent you from doing it without voiding your warranty, such as one-time fuses.

In theory, yes, you could implement it like you said, but that's not what happens in practice nor the direction we've been tending towards in recent times.

replies(1): >>Arnt+Au
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15. adev_+9r[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:11:23
>>nptelj+74
> Yep! Basically, it's safer if you don't own your PC. Think about users with a million toolbars and Bonzi Buddy installed.

And it is a pretty terrible solution to the problem.

- It is also keeping the good guys outside too: Anyone that want to analyse and understand the security of the system for good reasons cannot. Excepted if explicitly allowed by the corporation X and that is a terrible security property.

- No root access also means very little control or ability to scan the system itself if your are not the X corporation controlling it. That means no possibility to mandate reviewer corporation Y to check that corporation X is doing the right thing. TPMs currently make that even worst by design, they are undocumented and complex, therefore rely on blind trust that company X do the rthe ight thing. And since the Intel management engine fiasco, we do know they are not doing the right thing.

- Bonzi Buddy and toolbar type of problem can be easily avoided by separating properly the normal user account from any admin account(the unix way). It should be painful to be admin but not impossible, just to make sure your grandma do not install a rootkit by mistake when she want her 20% coupon.

In summary: That is mainly bullshit from company X to keep full control on the entire user device, and not for their own good.

replies(1): >>nptelj+WB
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16. Arnt+Au[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:33:03
>>feanar+Eq
Bootloader locking is orthogonal to whether there's a second CPU like that Pluton in the system.
replies(1): >>feanar+lB
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17. fulafe+cv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:37:20
>>kahncl+A8
If this was the reason they'd be blocking access from phones that are not up to date on security updates and are being actively exploited by malware to get root.

But it's the other way around, if you improve your old device by installing a up to date Android on your vendor-abandoned previously vulnerable device, you go from working banking to banned from banking.

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18. api+pv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 12:38:42
>>Aeolun+G
This is the root of the pro market / mainstream market split.

For the pro market people want control. Pros also generally know a bit more about how to use that control and tend to be less likely to end up getting pwned immediately.

For regular users people just want shit that works. Not having control is a feature, because if you have control then the malware you are tricked into installing from "ɡeτflrêfox.com" also has control.

You can see it in the Apple ecosystem with iOS vs. macOS. Macs and iPads are now almost the same hardware. (The M chips are just A chips on 'roids.) But Macs can run other OSes and you can "sudo root." That's because Macs are for pros.

replies(1): >>katbyt+kR
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19. feanar+lB[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 13:15:46
>>Arnt+Au
To quote you:

> The "you" that boots the device are in control, and the "you" that uses the device after that have exactly what "you" set up at boot time, neither more nor less. If both "you" are the same person, then there's no loss of control.

How is it orthogonal? Okay, we're not strictly speaking of only bootloader locking, but of boot-time-control locking.

replies(1): >>Arnt+1Dd
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20. nptelj+WB[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 13:19:50
>>adev_+9r
I agree. In a proposal like this, security is basically a byproduct, and sometimes not even that[0]. This is also a domain where the governmental and corporate powers have a similar goal, which is wresting away the control from the public / individual. They basically work in synergy, only to a point of course, but still.

Regarding Bonzi Buddy, I disagree. I think user data is as important, if not more important, than root access - which is why I'm dumbfounded when ancient server security features, like Linux's sudo system, are applied to the consumer device like a PC or a smartphone. These contexts are much better server by a sandboxing, permission-based whatever that seems to pick up steam, like the current permission systems on smartphones. Grandma's logins and bank data will be stolen from her own user account just the same as an admin account. Related XKCD[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

[0] https://xkcd.com/1200/

replies(1): >>iggldi+931
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21. userbi+CE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 13:31:33
>>nptelj+74
Think about users with a million toolbars and Bonzi Buddy installed.

I say let them be. As long as they also have the freedom to remove or not install such software, it's a good thing. Instead we have locked-down devices with the functional equivalent of such unwanted software, protected so that you cannot remove it without somehow getting root.

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

replies(1): >>lotsof+oI
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22. lotsof+oI[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 13:52:48
>>userbi+CE
My parents grew up in a non English speaking developing country, and they cannot be reasonably expected to learn the nuances of malware laden links to figure out which English text link is good or bad.

Do they deserve to not be able to shop online without fear of having their payment information stolen? Or mistyping a URL in their non native language and ending up at a scam website that installs malware? Or simply having a device that comes to a crawl such that they cannot reliably video call their grandkids?

replies(2): >>nptelj+oK >>agileA+VY
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23. nptelj+oK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 14:01:57
>>lotsof+oI
I don't mind the lock, but why don't we have the key? There's no reason to centally hold these hostage.
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24. katbyt+kR[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 14:33:52
>>api+pv
You can also disable all the system integrity protection stuff on macOS pretty easily if you do want to mess around where apple rather people not.
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25. agileA+VY[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 15:00:59
>>lotsof+oI
The problem you are describing will be irrelevant in a generation or two, as kids grow up on the internet.
replies(1): >>corrra+D41
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26. iggldi+931[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 15:18:14
>>nptelj+WB
> like the current permission systems on smartphones

Ugh, except that one goes overboard in the completely opposite direction, and often doesn't let me properly share data between apps even when I want to.

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27. corrra+D41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-26 15:26:11
>>agileA+VY
I can assure you that the upcoming generations aren't much better at any of this, on average.

And no, it's not smartphones' faults. Most people just don't "get" desktop OS paradigms, or how web pages work, or any of that, and they don't really care to.

replies(2): >>userbi+WV2 >>agileA+rc4
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28. userbi+WV2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-27 04:17:10
>>corrra+D41
Most people just don't "get" desktop OS paradigms, or how web pages work, or any of that, and they don't really care to.

That's because they "won't miss freedom they never had".

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29. kahncl+ih3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-27 08:27:52
>>ajsnig+nq
Are you saying the bank doesn’t have the right to define what kinds of software are permitted to access its systems?

We’re not just talking about the freedom to run software on your own device here, we’re talking about interacting with outside systems. There is an important distinction in context.

replies(1): >>ajsnig+ps3
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30. ajsnig+ps3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-27 10:35:41
>>kahncl+ih3
It's a browser.

As long as it adheres to basic web standards, I believe no, the bank should have no say in what browser you use to access their webpage.

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31. agileA+rc4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-27 15:29:59
>>corrra+D41
Nah dude. Most young people nowadays have an inbuilt sense of which links are sus; it's not exactly rocket science. If it looks sus, it is.
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32. Arnt+1Dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-30 16:13:40
>>feanar+lB
That CPU is set up by the kernel at boot time, given the code to run, then some hardware bits are toggled such that the main CPU can't write later, it can only access the separate CPU via a defined API.

The kernel could do the same with an in-kernel process. It wouldn't have quite the same depth of defense against userspace sandbox escapes, but could be done. That's roughly how /dev/random was implemented for many years.

Look at the APIs provided — it's nothing new. It's nothing OSes haven't provided before, it's just further removed from a Chrome/FF/Safari sandbox escape, because overcoming the write-once hardware toggles is harder than getting kernel read/write primitives for a sandbox privilege escalation.

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