zlacker

[parent] [thread] 26 comments
1. Nextgr+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-03-23 11:54:49
I’m using this as a daily driver.

It’s usable and the security benefits are definitely important when working with multiple security domains (separate clients each with their own confidential data and third-party dependencies, where you don’t want one client’s malicious NPM dependency affecting the other).

However, there are cons. It’s only really usable in a stationary environment; it completely kills battery life and even basic tasks such as (non-HD) video display maxes out a single CPU core so it’s just not worth trying on a laptop. Hibernation doesn’t seem to be supported by default which becomes risky when combined with the extreme power usage.

replies(3): >>fsflov+C >>orbliv+66 >>isodud+rf
2. fsflov+C[view] [source] 2022-03-23 12:00:50
>>Nextgr+(OP)
Indeed the battery life is shorter than with normal Linux, but it's fine with me. Concerning the hibernation, see this: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2414.
3. orbliv+66[view] [source] 2022-03-23 12:48:04
>>Nextgr+(OP)
I use it on my Librem-15 v3. I can confirm that it's a PITA as far as performance. One "nice" thing is that if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM. You can kill it and restart it and not interrupt anything else.

The other problem is memory. I have to decide to between Signal Desktop and development sometimes.

But it's my main machine for what I care. I love the peace of mind running random things if the need comes up. For more intensive stuff, media games etc, I have a previous machine running Ubuntu.

replies(1): >>Reacti+a8
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4. Reacti+a8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 13:01:57
>>orbliv+66
> if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM.

I still wonder why kernels can't just handle this properly.

I've seen it in both Windows and Linux systems, something takes all the CPU or I/O or RAM, and the UI is so starved that you can't kill it.

Shouldn't that already be handled by things like virtual memory, and the kernel scheduler? Why do modern OSes, that have to protect against such complicated attacks like Spectre, struggle to do what the very first multi-tasking kernels promised before I was born?

replies(6): >>orbliv+B9 >>willci+da >>seanw4+Gd >>Showal+8g >>aidenn+Mq >>michae+4O
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5. orbliv+B9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 13:13:25
>>Reacti+a8
Yeah, beats me.
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6. willci+da[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 13:18:14
>>Reacti+a8
The task manager in Windows has a higher priority than everything else if I recall correctly. Its not pure ram or cpu usage that causes you to be unable to reach it but waiting for blocking sys calls I'd suspect.
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7. seanw4+Gd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 13:43:19
>>Reacti+a8
Isn't this what a microkernel is supposed to accomplish?
replies(1): >>aidenn+bp
8. isodud+rf[view] [source] 2022-03-23 13:53:42
>>Nextgr+(OP)
I've been using this as a daily driver for at least 5 years now.

Only laptops so far, with 4+ cores and 32+GB RAM and 500G+ disk.

It was working fine on my Lenovo T470p, and it runs pretty sweet on Lenovo P14s. Except that suspend is not working. ( Hopefully is resolved soon ).

It's always a problem with battery, but with suspend working fine it's quite easy to get a solid 30 days uptime even though you move around. ~3h runtime with ~10 vms running.

I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I wouldn't choose anything else if I would do it all over. Totally worth the extreme learning curve ;-)

replies(3): >>thinkm+rp >>Melato+TR >>jamal-+GU
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9. Showal+8g[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 13:58:12
>>Reacti+a8
this is what SysReq is for.

>The magic SysRq key is a key combination understood by the Linux kernel, which allows the user to perform various low-level commands regardless of the system's state. It is often used to recover from freezes, or to reboot a computer without corrupting the filesystem.[1] Its effect is similar to the computer's hardware reset button (or power switch) but with many more options and much more control.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key?lang=en

replies(1): >>codeth+b61
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10. aidenn+bp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 14:54:00
>>seanw4+Gd
Microkernel vs monolith has very little relation to resource (time and space) allocation, other than the fact that a microkernel is going to have an easier time with preventing runaway space usage of kernel services.
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11. thinkm+rp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 14:55:15
>>isodud+rf
Is it worth trying on a laptop with less RAM, like 8 or 16gb?
replies(3): >>fsflov+zr >>isodud+Qs >>Sakos+TK
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12. aidenn+Mq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 15:02:16
>>Reacti+a8
It's levels of abstraction. The kernel does not know that swapping out X11/window-manager/gnome-terminal/whatever will make your system unusable.

There is mlockall() but it's a loaded footgun by default, and is rlimit-ed by default because it's not something you want users on a multiuser system to be able to do willy-nilly.

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13. fsflov+zr[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 15:07:12
>>thinkm+rp
Yes, see the requirements: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/.
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14. isodud+Qs[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 15:13:57
>>thinkm+rp
To make Firefox happy inside a VM it takes up about 2GB RAM. Dom0 eats up 1G RAM. sys-net, sys-firewall, sys-usb eats up another 1G RAM.

My collegue actually runs on 16G, but he has to consider memory when starting a VM, but it's doable.

You can run on 8G, but it wouldn't be a good daily driver. But maybe if you have a very specific purpose?

24G+ is comfortable. I'm currently at 48G and have 43G "mapped" to VMs. It's very easy to use a lot of RAM!

replies(2): >>fsflov+Jt >>lapino+Hu
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15. fsflov+Jt[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 15:19:14
>>isodud+Qs
You can drastically decrease the memory footprint if you use minimal templates: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/minimal. But even with normal templates, one can run several VMs, and it's much more secure (and even convenient) than an ordinary OS.
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16. lapino+Hu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 15:23:28
>>isodud+Qs
sys-net, sys-firewall and other administrative vms should slowly migrate to unikernels instead of running linux, which should help with ram usage. The mirage.io project seems to build a couple qubes vms, for example https://github.com/mirage/qubes-mirage-firewall is a firewall which they indicate to give 64Mb of ram.

edit: maybe i'm being a bit optimistic for sys-net, which is the vm hosting the driver for the network card: these drivers are included in the linux tree and would need to be extracted and packaged into an unikernel. But for every non-driver vm it "should be easy" to get an unikernel implementation (drivers for paravirtual devices are easy to write).

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17. Sakos+TK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 16:45:05
>>thinkm+rp
When I tried it 16GB was tight but doable. I would've preferred more, because I spent more time than I wanted micromanaging VM sizes.
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18. michae+4O[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 17:00:45
>>Reacti+a8
Windows has a single official UI and a low level handling of a key press to bring up an element that must ideally remain responsive.

Linux has many and a set of low level responses to keybondings that must remain responsive that don't have a UI nor ability to kill individual applications.

To be fair in current systems Linux UIs normally remain responsive until memory exhaustion which is handled very badly. You will probably reboot before the oom killer assassinates the offender. The fix is a user space daemon like earlyoom which activates at a configurable level and targeting rather than absolute exhaustion when even killing the offender is challenging and usage has been hard for tens of minutes.

You or your environment can also set your UI process to a higher priority as far as processing and io.

If your UI doesn't remain responsive it's because your distro isn't using existing tools to achieve this.

replies(2): >>folmar+9g1 >>chupas+Th1
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19. Melato+TR[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 17:18:18
>>isodud+rf
I may have to try this on my old T420 - will not be nearly as fast as your stuff but it does have 12GB of ram and a decent SSD. I have the dedicated Nvidia graphics card though which sounds like it may cause problems.....
replies(1): >>isodud+Kq2
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20. jamal-+GU[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 17:31:07
>>isodud+rf
I used it on a 2013 i7 laptop some years ago successfully as my daily driver for a while by buying a couple extended capacity batteries and swapping them out when they were spent. Could get work done on the beach like that.

Now you can't find that kind of computer with swappable batteries anymore and I have work in 3D to do, I don't trust Intel anymore and try to buy AMD, so I'm stuck with windows haha how time have changed.

I'd buy another box capable of running this if I needed a VM lab type setup again. Very cool for that.

replies(1): >>teruak+zs1
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21. codeth+b61[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 18:37:13
>>Showal+8g
Not really. The UI will still be unresponsive and the only thing you can do is reboot the system safely using Magic SysRq. What OP is asking about is why the UI is unresponsive in the first place.
replies(1): >>lolc+RB1
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22. folmar+9g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 19:34:49
>>michae+4O
If you are at the physiacl keyboard you can run the oom killer via the sysrq key. I would say that the kernel oom killer is quite usable since the last few years but is triggered too late - especially for applications like Firefox that handle malloc failures gracefully.
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23. chupas+Th1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 19:44:12
>>michae+4O
oomkiller wouldn't help if there's an I/O overload (good old friend Linux kernel bug #12309) since memory usage is fine, just your system can't read anything from network or storage.
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24. teruak+zs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 20:46:12
>>jamal-+GU
A Usb-c battery with 60W output would certainly extend a modern laptop even if it won't be able to fully supply the power requirment for a workstation-type laptop.
replies(1): >>jamal-+rj3
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25. lolc+RB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-23 21:32:09
>>codeth+b61
When I ran memory-intense tests on low ram, I had the sysrq sequence for the oom-killer at my fingertips. When the system would start thrashing, it was a quick way back to safety.
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26. isodud+Kq2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-24 06:27:18
>>Melato+TR
I think that it would run fantastic, my Lenovo had dedicated Nvidia graphics and it worked like a charm. The AMD APU (Vega graphics) have been a horror show.
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27. jamal-+rj3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-24 14:26:42
>>teruak+zs1
Nice tip I'm going to try that actually
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