zlacker

[parent] [thread] 31 comments
1. pintxo+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-03-05 11:26:02
If a corp like Nvidia cannot manage to store Code signing certs on hardware only, the whole process is broken beyond repair. What’s the value of signed code going forward?
replies(8): >>ddtayl+O5 >>Genbox+P6 >>jimmas+ba >>imglor+rj >>Pragma+Zl >>keving+ho >>linste+Ip1 >>stuu99+6a2
2. ddtayl+O5[view] [source] 2022-03-05 12:18:58
>>pintxo+(OP)
Defense in depth.
replies(1): >>postal+Ds
3. Genbox+P6[view] [source] 2022-03-05 12:27:22
>>pintxo+(OP)
There is a hint of frequency illusion here. Millions of code signing certificates are stored securely on hardware devices or by other means. A leak of a private key every now and then does not negate the security of the entire ecosystem.
replies(1): >>pintxo+tb
4. jimmas+ba[view] [source] 2022-03-05 12:55:16
>>pintxo+(OP)
> What’s the value of signed code

A part of the roadmap to only allowing average users to execute native programs their overlords approve of. We're already sadly most of the way there with the scary dialogs and dark patterns anyone has to navigate to run anything unapproved.

replies(1): >>willis+Mc
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5. pintxo+tb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 13:08:32
>>Genbox+P6
Is there any proof that most others store their certificates on hardware?
replies(3): >>gruez+sm >>Genbox+qn >>native+IM
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6. willis+Mc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 13:18:29
>>jimmas+ba
I don't think their overlords can approve that they never see. That's the issue with bad private cert security. The system is as strong as its weakest link.
replies(1): >>hulitu+Em3
7. imglor+rj[view] [source] 2022-03-05 14:06:18
>>pintxo+(OP)
The benefit of signed code is it grants hardware vendors a perpetual control, gatekeeping, and rent seeking role. It was never your hardware.

The cover story was security, which might be mathematically correct but in practice has been shown false in every way. Look how much malware gets signed and shipped on devices and sold on app stores: the vendor gets their cut, /shrug. Look how many devices have been intentionally bricked to force new sales - yay them again. And then there's the certificate management illusion.

replies(2): >>gruez+6m >>aaaaaa+9t
8. Pragma+Zl[view] [source] 2022-03-05 14:29:02
>>pintxo+(OP)
“If it can’t be 100% perfect then what’s the point” is one of my least favorite arguments.

A single or even multiple breaches doesn’t suddenly remove all value from all other code signing models.

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9. gruez+6m[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 14:29:55
>>imglor+rj
> The benefit of signed code is it grants hardware vendors a perpetual control, gatekeeping, and rent seeking role. It was never your hardware.

but in this case it's literally not caused by hardware vendors ? They're not even a party to this arrangement. The requirement is being enforced by windows, and the certificates are issued by various CAs. If you don't want that just use linux or something, or disable signature enforcement within windows.

replies(2): >>krasta+YC >>Ashame+FB1
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10. gruez+sm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 14:32:21
>>pintxo+tb
Hardware tokens are mandated for EV code signing certificates[1], but not for regular certificates. However, the certificate was from a while ago so that requirement probably wasn't a thing back then.

[1] https://www.digicert.com/signing/code-signing-certificates "REQUIRES TWO-FACTOR AUTHENTICATION USING HARDWARE TOKEN"

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11. Genbox+qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 14:40:14
>>pintxo+tb
What gruez said is correct. Hardware token have been mandated for EV certificates for a long time by providers to prevent leaks.

I'll also add that Amazon Key Management Service, Azure Key Vault, and Google Key Management Service store several hundred million private keys combined with no leaks so far (they are non-exportable and access is audited)

It is very rare that we see malware signed by a publisher's certificate, which is why it is in the news every time it happens.

replies(1): >>hulitu+vt3
12. keving+ho[view] [source] 2022-03-05 14:48:09
>>pintxo+(OP)
https certificates leak all the time and we still use https. Something is better than nothing. Now, is it worthwhile to use code signing certs to try and certify the identity of the author? Maybe not, it was slowly phased out for https. But we certainly need something because the alternative (just download and run whatever) was tried and definitely did not work out. We don't want grandma doing the equivalent of 'curl http://x | sudo bash' 4 times a week.
replies(3): >>blabla+mB >>hulitu+vK >>Schroe+7u2
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13. postal+Ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 15:20:24
>>ddtayl+O5
10 layers of weak defenses should be enough for anyone.
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14. aaaaaa+9t[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 15:23:46
>>imglor+rj
The /shrug continues until everyone here stops buying Lenovo hardware after they shipped a rootkit, etc
replies(1): >>CyanBi+9H
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15. blabla+mB[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 16:26:08
>>keving+ho
I don't get why companies that large would bother considering not using HSMs. Basically it's about public-key encryption, even if https is not ideal, it's quite a widespread implementation that can be sufficiently secure for many use cases
replies(1): >>keving+D92
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16. krasta+YC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 16:35:29
>>gruez+6m
Most linux distros have used signed repository packages since forever, right? Not really challenging what you are saying, rather asking whether this is not already a very similar setup. I guess it is a social web of trust among package maintainers as opposed to the certificate authority root of trust in Windows. Or am I making a flawed comparison?
replies(1): >>imglor+601
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17. CyanBi+9H[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 16:55:39
>>aaaaaa+9t
Listen, I really like their Legion series

If people have got recommendations I am all ears

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18. hulitu+vK[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 17:11:30
>>keving+ho
> We don't want grandma doing the equivalent of 'curl http://x | sudo bash' 4 times a week.

That's why we have web browsers running untrusted remote code.

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19. native+IM[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 17:22:03
>>pintxo+tb
I bought a Windows EV code signing cert just months ago. It comes in the form of a password protected USB token.
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20. imglor+601[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 18:28:43
>>krasta+YC
Linux lets you ignore signatures if you prefer. There are plenty of devices that don't.
21. linste+Ip1[view] [source] 2022-03-05 21:13:11
>>pintxo+(OP)
"what's the point of laws so complex criminals can't understand them? They'll be broken anyway"
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22. Ashame+FB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 22:39:29
>>gruez+6m
You cant disable signature enforcement on Windows. You can test sign and only if you disable secure boot and enjoy desktop watermarks.
replies(1): >>Wowfun+1C1
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23. Wowfun+1C1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-05 22:41:34
>>Ashame+FB1
^ Not enough people are angry about this! I have a permanent watermark on my desktop because I use an edid override for my projector and hobbyist drivers for niche video game controllers. It sucks.
replies(2): >>sterli+rt2 >>Schroe+Vt2
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24. keving+D92[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 03:30:44
>>blabla+mB
My understanding is that HSMs are a requirement, and the leaked certificate predates it.
25. stuu99+6a2[view] [source] 2022-03-06 03:37:41
>>pintxo+(OP)
Signed binaries use will come into being with trusted computing, they are embedding Denuvo in the operating system, aka future compilers will allow game companies and companies like autodesk to sign their exe's and the exe's if cracked can be added to a list that windows 11 can force update the bios to add these cracked exes to a list that will refuse to run.

That's the gist of trusted computing they are building an alternative internet/mainframe computer inside yours that they only have access to.

Where have you been the last 23+ years? The videogame industry has been stealing PC games since 1997 with ultima online. Hear it from the dev's themselves.

Don't think MMO's killed local PC games? Listen here kids.

https://youtu.be/lnnsDi7Sxq0?t=1134

EA killed ultima 9 when the UO beta got massive interest, that lead to the death of PC games as local applications, the industry from then on there was a massive war to back end all PC games, they couldn't immediately do that to quake and urneal because we'd been treated too good with Warcraft 1-3, Descent 1-3, Quake 1-3, and build engine games like Duke 3d. The entire industry has always wanted to kill piracy and Ultima online gave the entire industry the go ahead once they realized that many of our fellow programmers and gamers were irrationally stupid beyond their wildest dreams.

Anyone playing quake and Descent at the time fear the loss of dedicated servers and level editors which used to come with the games, we knew if Ultima online was successful that Publishers would want to back end every fucking PC game and that's the end of the personal computer and the return of IBM and mainframe computing.

"Signed exe's" and trusted computing is the return of mainframe computing of the 60's in new bullshit language but I don't expect the mmo/steam generation to do anything but froth at the mouth. When they were the ones killing gaming and gave birth to microtransactions.

You can't put MTX in diablo 1, warcraft 1-3, or starcraft 1 because they are local applications that run entirely from your pc. None of the code has been stolen out of the game carved back behind a user account and login requirement. Like with most PC games these days.

We're losing gaming history and generation mmo is to blame for their general cluelessness of the evil of mainframe computing.

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26. sterli+rt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 08:35:38
>>Wowfun+1C1
the reason is vendors. in the XP era, OEMs would write crappy drivers, which made Windows unstable or erratic. WHQL was established to ensure quality control, but vendors could simply disable signing if they couldn't be bothered to make their drivers up to code. the watermark was added to prevent such unscrupulous behavior.
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27. Schroe+Vt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 08:40:47
>>Wowfun+1C1
Stop using windows. Stop accepting microsoft software at work.
replies(2): >>Ashame+0Z2 >>hulitu+mm3
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28. Schroe+7u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 08:43:32
>>keving+ho
You put they keys in the owner's hands with a method of changing them that can only he done with physical access.
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29. Ashame+0Z2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 15:02:13
>>Schroe+Vt2
I don't use Windows myself, but I have to develop for it, and hit this problems even when everything I develop is open source.
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30. hulitu+mm3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 17:55:18
>>Schroe+Vt2
> Stop using windows. Stop accepting microsoft software at work.

Some people need money to sustain their families. As a prostitute you can choose your clients but this might lead to lower income. ( yes, i do think that me, having to use Microsoft software is prostitution, but i didn't had any employer which gave me a chance to install linux).

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31. hulitu+Em3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 17:56:37
>>willis+Mc
The systwm does not have to _be_ secure. It has to look _secure_.
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32. hulitu+vt3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-03-06 18:39:02
>>Genbox+qn
No leaks does not imply security.
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