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1. _hhkg+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-02-18 13:51:01
As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). That being said however, this young country does also have many positives to it that go unnoticed by those across the world since they're rarely reported. They may be small, but they are accomplishments nonetheless, such as a couple years ago being the "Year of Tolerance" where the gov't focused on bring inclusivity in their own way to the country, or bringing the Pope to this country on his first ever visit to the Gulf, or even the religious centers that are being built in Abu Dhabi that celebrate Jewish, Muslim and Christian history. For a country hardly 50 years old, it's come a long way. Just this year, a lot of laws such as having children out of wedlock, marijuana / alcohol, not requiring a local partner for business, etc., have all been relaxed and this is just the beginning. They've also introduced a variety of labor laws (though I don't think they're being followed by the owners of these companies, but that's a qualm for another day)

I don't want to get across that this country is good or bad, but that it's _complex_ (just like most countries). I do personally believe that the leadership of the country is trying to make a positive impact, though it's usually in ways that aren't reported in the media and... that's all I want put out there, just to bring some nuance to the conversation.

Having said all that, going back to the long-form article, I will say only one thing, debt is something that's really scary to have here since AFAIK, it's illegal in Islam, so the credit card system tends to be strangely designed and if I was ever in debt to this country or any of these Arab countries, I'd stay far away from here.

replies(9): >>codech+11 >>jevote+03 >>brthsi+V3 >>refurb+Z5 >>whywhy+d6 >>bigthy+C8 >>mabbo+Rg >>hassan+TW >>fennec+Zua
2. codech+11[view] [source] 2022-02-18 13:57:29
>>_hhkg+(OP)
You wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship.

Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.

replies(2): >>lmm+37 >>_hhkg+jc
3. jevote+03[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:08:40
>>_hhkg+(OP)
> not requiring a local partner for business

Are you sure this is a good thing? It opens the country to foreign economic exploitation. There's a reason China required it for so long.

4. brthsi+V3[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:13:18
>>_hhkg+(OP)
Anyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.
replies(5): >>brynx9+65 >>CJeffe+q6 >>_hhkg+a8 >>tasha0+Ja >>themat+ms
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5. brynx9+65[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:19:43
>>brthsi+V3
Well said. They shield themselves well, and they package it up nicely for business interests and tourists to tolerate it or never experience problematic situations.
6. refurb+Z5[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:23:45
>>_hhkg+(OP)
I upvoted you because it’s easy to shit on countries.

Sure, Dubai may not reach the level Western democracies have, but they also didn’t start at the same point as well. That doesn’t excuse the shortcomings, but maybe explains them.

Western democracies in Europe and North America didn’t spring up overnight. You’re looking at 800+ years of developing a broadly accepted set of human rights.

replies(1): >>whywhy+I7
7. whywhy+d6[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:24:28
>>_hhkg+(OP)
Funny how what would be extremely backward and illegal beliefs in the west just become "complicated" once huge amounts of money are involved.
replies(1): >>circle+d9
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8. CJeffe+q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:25:03
>>brthsi+V3
Does the same apply to America? Plenty of racism, people shot in their homes by police, Guantanamo Bay still open.
replies(1): >>throw_+Q8
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9. lmm+37[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:27:42
>>codech+11
It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.

I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.

replies(2): >>codech+y9 >>RF_Sav+Qa
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10. whywhy+I7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:30:26
>>refurb+Z5
The mental gymnastics people will do to excuse that place are insane.

Honestly can't imagine anyone would be this forgiving of it's bigotry if it wasn't so rich.

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11. _hhkg+a8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:32:25
>>brthsi+V3
I don’t think that’s fair. You don’t know why I’m here and calling me an entitled prick is laughable because of your base assumptions. Maybe I’m here for humanitarian reasons and am trying to improve the lives of many.

I’m not infatuated by anything, I’m simply raising a nuanced opinion about a country that has many faults, but has some successes which are never acknowledged. And that’s fine.

Just thought it might be interesting to hear a viewpoint from someone who actually lives here rather than blindly reads the news and maybe has visited a few times. Labeling me and calling me names doesn’t help or bring anything useful to the conversation. If you can’t name a single positive thing the UAE has done, then to me, maybe it’s worth it to do some further investigation on the topic.

replies(2): >>WilTim+Jm >>bitcha+Iq
12. bigthy+C8[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:34:38
>>_hhkg+(OP)
Debt is not illegal in Islam.
replies(1): >>_hhkg+hf
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13. throw_+Q8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:35:46
>>CJeffe+q6
I really think an educational program is needed to take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit to cure this kind of whataboutism deflections that crop up anytime criticisms are made of conditions for people in foreign countries.
replies(1): >>logicc+A9
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14. circle+d9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:37:35
>>whywhy+d6
I don't think beliefs are illegal anywhere in the west
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15. codech+y9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:38:30
>>lmm+37
> It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them

Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.

> I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.

That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in. For some reason I suspect this will not be answered.

> I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.

More blah blah blah nonsense. Examples, give them. I have numerous freedoms I exercise daily (speech, worship, association, ownership of war weapons).

replies(1): >>lmm+jR2
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16. logicc+A9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:38:40
>>throw_+Q8
>take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit

I'm sure once they come to Dubai they'll be horrified how the streets aren't covered in human shit and used needles.

replies(1): >>throw_+Wf
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17. tasha0+Ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:43:24
>>brthsi+V3
Opinions will exist with or without your permission. There's no entitlement about it, and you would have no standing to decide it if there was. "Automatically not entitled to an opinion" is a dog whistle for fascism.
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18. RF_Sav+Qa[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:44:01
>>lmm+37
Doesn't that just mean that there's more space for one to get arbitrary trouble the moment somebody decides that they don't like you or what you do?
replies(1): >>lmm+DR2
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19. _hhkg+jc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:48:55
>>codech+11
I’m not waxing poetic about anything. I agree that the UAE has engaged (and continues to engage) in several atrocities. Many many horrible things which as mentioned, I’m also combating during my time here.

Also you mentioned little fact, mostly emotion, but i stated things like the Year of Tolerance, the religious temples being built, etc. but I’d hope others can also investigate on their own. We are so quick to paint countries as evil without understanding the full situation.

I’ve met several intelligent people here from everywhere in the world and many here are trying to have a positive impact on the country.

replies(1): >>codech+Ph
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20. _hhkg+hf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:01:21
>>bigthy+C8
You’re right, just reading more on the topic now, it’s a punishable offense, not illegal. My mistake thanks for pointing this out
replies(2): >>throwa+vC >>unmole+RE
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21. throw_+Wf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:04:34
>>logicc+A9
I almost feel like you're proving my point. Try going outside the tourist districts. Nobody is complaining that the streets of downtown Dubai are dirty, they're complaining that they're being cleaned by slave labor.
22. mabbo+Rg[view] [source] 2022-02-18 15:09:03
>>_hhkg+(OP)
You remind me of myself when I used to work for Amazon.

I'd also spend a lot of time explaining to friends how "It's complicated" and "You know, they also do a lot of good things". But the reality I wouldn't admit to myself was much simpler: they were doing awful things, but I was willing to work for them as long as they paid me enough and made my life comfortable enough.

It's very uncomfortable to admit to yourself that your ethics and morals have a price. I hope yours was high enough.

replies(1): >>_hhkg+Bi
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23. codech+Ph[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:13:12
>>_hhkg+jc
> Also you mentioned little fact, mostly emotion, but i stated things like the Year of Tolerance, the religious temples being built, etc. but I’d hope others can also investigate on their own. We are so quick to paint countries as evil without understanding the full situation.

You are correct. Let me help rectify my transgression by providing a very consolidated list of things I can do in America that you can not do in the UAE:

1. Hold elections.

2. Form political parties.

3. Criticize my government and officials.

4. Have extra-martial or casual sex.

5. Consume alcohol.

6. Consume cannabis.

7. Be homosexual.

8. Kiss my partner in public.

9. Eat, drink, and smoke between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan.

10. Swear - both IRL and online.

Is that enough or do you need more concrete examples? The list is quite long.

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24. _hhkg+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:17:30
>>mabbo+Rg
I appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous.

I’ll add something else, as someone who has faced racism growing up in the Bay Area very very often, I’m sensitive to it and it’s something I push back on every time I’m faced with it here.

replies(2): >>wnscoo+jm >>mabbo+IS
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25. wnscoo+jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:32:15
>>_hhkg+Bi
I’m curious about your stated reason for being there. Dubai gives Humanitarian visas to foreigners? To work in its own country (which then means it’s admitting it needs help)? I guess the host company is Dubaian? With all sincerity, I’m curious.
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26. WilTim+Jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:33:32
>>_hhkg+a8
That's a lot of maybes. You said in your initial comment that you fight racism and slavery there every day, so... are you there on humanitarian reasons? Part of an NGO?
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27. bitcha+Iq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:52:46
>>_hhkg+a8
No, it's entirely fair. You just refuse to appreciate the dissonance between the country that lets you live a comfy life and actual evil that happens there on daily basis.

There was so much media coverage about human rights violations and slavery you'd have to put in a lot of effort to not see it.

replies(1): >>_hhkg+qu
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28. themat+ms[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:00:32
>>brthsi+V3
By this logic, your own opinions are invalid, since as an American you clearly personally condone every social evil in that country.
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29. _hhkg+qu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:09:10
>>bitcha+Iq
I appreciate the dissonance just fine. I live here and face it every day when actually interacting with people. We go out of our way to support them as much as we can (buying furniture and things for those who cannot afford it, proving financial and emotional support, and just hanging out with them).

As I’ve mentioned now several times, I’m not blind to it. The UAE has engaged in many poorly made decisions, however I was simply trying to engage in some conversation about something the western media doesn’t often talk about - the positive things the UAE does. If your response to that is, “the UAE is entirely negative, why engage in anything positive”, then I’d suggest seeking information on the positive things the country has done for others. Maybe it’ll broaden your horizon and bring some nuance. I’d state more positives here, but I keep getting called names, so I won’t list any more positives.

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30. throwa+vC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:46:47
>>_hhkg+hf
Interest is punishable, debt, not so much.
replies(1): >>bigthy+RM2
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31. unmole+RE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:57:29
>>_hhkg+hf
In which country is it a punishable offense?
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32. mabbo+IS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 18:05:21
>>_hhkg+Bi
You know, I do owe you an apology. That was snarky as hell and I don't know your situation. Sorry.
replies(2): >>_hhkg+D21 >>nlittl+pw1
33. hassan+TW[view] [source] 2022-02-18 18:27:52
>>_hhkg+(OP)
Debt is NOT illegal in Islam.

Debt is debt, that’s it, you’re supposed to pay it back.

Not a reason to criminalize a debt the way the UAE does it.

Islam has nothing to do with this.

Other things you mentioned are NOT complex:

Slavery, exploitation, lack of rule of law, lack of human rights, lack of women rights etc

Let’s not give the UAE a pass here.

People go to the UAE to make money. They re not there from some “intellectually difficult to explain” reason. Pure $$$.

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34. _hhkg+D21[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 18:55:47
>>mabbo+IS
Not a problem, appreciate it
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35. nlittl+pw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 21:41:27
>>mabbo+IS
not OP but I respect the apology
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36. bigthy+RM2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-19 11:38:35
>>throwa+vC
Even this is not entirely true.
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37. lmm+jR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-19 12:26:46
>>codech+y9
> Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.

Does this really not match your experience of how things have been going lately? Freedom of speech and association but that doesn't prevent you from being fired for what you say or who you associate with. Free to protest unless there's a risk your protest might have an effect, then a state of emergency will be declared and the police will explain how they can legally kidnap your dog.

> That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in.

Japan, FWIW. I could be deported if I took part in political activities, there are significant restrictions on my speech (strict libel laws). But I have a supportive local community and strong employment protection, both things that count for a lot.

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38. lmm+DR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-19 12:29:45
>>RF_Sav+Qa
In theory yes, but it's often a distraction in practice, like putting a triple-secure lock on your iron-plated door and leaving the window open. Many of these freedoms are important, but threatened much more by corporations or cultures than by governments.
39. fennec+Zua[view] [source] 2022-02-22 10:02:07
>>_hhkg+(OP)
I take the salt the Earth approach with countries that would imprison me, as a gay man for being gay. Or countries where simply being born a woman affords you fewer rights. I have zero respect for the UAE.

Your argument is a logical fallacy. Yes I'm sure the UAE is improving, but that doesn't mean we should stop vilifying it for the terribly evil laws it has and things it does. It's not "complex", there's just no motivation to make actual, sweeping change, only token change to appeal to the West, whom the UAE relies on to do business with. Dubai should not exist, it's an artificial Oasis in the desert in a world where global warming is becoming a serious threat. Dubai was built on slave labour.

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