zlacker

Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.

>>moreli+(OP)
What's enjoyable about having literal slaves attending to you? I can't imagine literal slaves give off a pleasant vibe.

>>moreli+(OP)
A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.

>>netsha+Hc
This is a very Reddit take, I think. The distinction is significantly more nuanced. Distance and percentage of slave labor used changes culpability, for example. I would argue that a person having a slave wait on them directly for all needs creates significantly more culpability than the fact that the lithium in my iPhone battery may or may not have come from some class of exploited labor worlds away from me. Further, while the slave owner could divest themselves of slaves directly, I don’t think there is any way for a modern westerner to rid themselves of anything in the supply chain of their lives of same. It doesn’t make it right, but these things are not equivalent.

>>netsha+Hc
I am also not exactly a fan of capitalism, and agree the line between slavery and wage slavery is thinner than most westerners think. But it's a lot easier (in every sense) for me not go party in Dubai than it is to live without pants or even a computer; just like a remedy of "just give them their passports back" is a lot easier to put into action than a way for Bangladeshi tailors to more fully capture their labor value on the global market.

Living there, as in being born there and having family and friendly connections, also presents a different set of moral and personal challenges vs. deciding to open a branch of my business there or taking a vacation there. In an abstract moral sense I'd like to divest myself of the US for a decade now, but that would be both materially dangerous until an alternative citizenship is effectively secured, and unfair to my family members who still live there.

>>netsha+Hc
It's called whataboutism and is a logical fallacy. If you feel good directly interacting with literal slaves I'm sure you would resort to this kind of mental gymnastic though

>>lm2846+SN
I would feel bad seeing the construction workers in the Middle Eastern countries (I have only been outside the airport in one of those countries once, for a few hours), but I'll be honest, I know my electronics and clothes are probably made by someone underpaid and overworked, but I don't feel very guilty about it. And I would hazard a guess that you have similar electronics and clothes, and you're not worried about it.

And whataboutism is also whataboutism, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. If I can call you out, you think being waited on by slaves is bad but give it a few thousand miles, then there's no mental gymnastics going on? Yeah we in the West^W capitalist world can pull the mental gymnastics and say "Well, it's the evil capitalist system, what can we do", oh hey, welcome to the class!

> Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair. In international relations, behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be quite good for a given geopolitical neighborhood, and deserves to be recognized as such.[12]

> Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.[82][83]

>>netsha+F51
> welcome to the class!

Members of all classes in the west benefit (in some ways) from from this arrangement, but only members of the capitalist classes are capable of changing it without revolutionary action. So, I know what I can do, but the first step involves rekindling class consciousness in the west which is rather a large order.

In the meantime while I do that, I can also not hit up a party in Dubai, and I think that's good too.

Or will you make the argument that confiscating laborers' passports is "quite good" for that geopolitical neighborhood?