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The Dubai Debt Trap

submitted by Geeket+(OP) on 2022-02-18 11:09:46 | 249 points 301 comments
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1. threat+g9[view] [source] 2022-02-18 12:31:33
>>Geeket+(OP)
Mirror: https://web.archive.org/web/20220218111600/https://www.econo...
10. ur-wha+dh[view] [source] 2022-02-18 13:26:48
>>Geeket+(OP)
https://archive.is/GKvGU
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16. baybal+Ei[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 13:36:02
>>themat+Nh
Totally correct. It's a North Korea with oil, and welfare programs, and, now, rave parties*

* https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM

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76. concin+Jv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 14:44:22
>>ur-wha+dh
This extension is effective, and by default restricts its access only asks for permissions for supported news sites (instead of having permission to access "All site data" like too many browser extensions):

https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean

82. jacque+dy[view] [source] 2022-02-18 14:53:56
>>Geeket+(OP)
You couldn't pay me to go there.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-har...

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96. onlyre+fC[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:12:02
>>retube+ue
> plus it's absurdly hot

Most of the places people visit and live aren't absurdly hot. The largest cities in the middle east BY FAR are Ciaro, Tehran, Istanbul, and Baghdad.

Cairo is hot most of the year - but one of these places are hotter than Phoenix - which is currently one of the places people are moving to in droves in the US

Tehran & Istanbul, for example, aren't even much hotter than Los Angeles: https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-...

If you think Los Angeles has bad weather - you're just out of touch with almost everyone else in the world.

Riyadh and Dubai are VERY HOT. KSA is its own strange destination from a Western perspective. It's mostly religious. But Dubai is similar to Las Vegas and Miami in many ways - in the crowd it attracts and what people do there. It's still much hotter - I agree, don't know how people do it there.

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125. maccar+OL[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 15:54:34
>>ycombi+Mf
Right, like no middle class person has ever been detained on landing for drinking... [0].

> less of a threat than one might think from the outside.

Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...

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132. dukeof+wN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:02:01
>>gruez+EJ
I would think the invaders would take the city and hold it. I've been to a Mall just outside of Dubai just dedicated to gold and jewellery. That mall alone probably had more wealth than many smaller cities in the world. So there's plenty to loot.

This reminded me:

Siege of Tyre 332 BC - Alexander the Great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98inDANKtEs&t=290s

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150. tim333+dT[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 16:28:47
>>mbg721+yt
Singapore is much more laid back. Usually the worst that will happen with foreigners is they deport them. Apart from drug dealing which carries a death penalty but they only do that when the person is guilty so don't deal drugs there!

I thought they were quite long suffering with "Briton arrested for not wearing a facemask in Singapore' because he said he didn't believe in them and wouldn't do it. I think he was jailed a couple of weeks and kicked out https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9864365/Briton-arre...

They can be a bit harsh with asking foreigners to leave if they have a work permit and lose their job. I think you get 30 days to go which is a bit of an upheaval if you are fired.

162. victor+pW[view] [source] 2022-02-18 16:43:07
>>Geeket+(OP)
India has a similar law. You will be detained from leaving the country even if you are not the principal borrower and you've just stood as a guarantor for someone else's loan the bank can issue a lookout circular without even approaching a court. One of my offshore resources was arrested at the airport[1] even though he was not the pricipal borrower of the loan.

The funny thing about these incidents is that, all these countries want to have startup hubs, all the while forgetting that the very definition of a startup means risk taking where 9 out 10 companies go bankrupt.

One of the reasons I still think the west (UK, EU, US) are still some of the best countries to have a thriving business environment. You can be assured (at least a vast majority of the time) that no crazy laws like these would be enacted that would encroach on fundamental rights of a citizen over a civil issue.

[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...

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176. Beetle+q11[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 17:07:08
>>feupan+fU
They can now.

https://www.saudiembassy.net/tourist-visa

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186. aorth+731[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 17:14:42
>>jacque+dy
Me neither:

- https://www.amazon.com/Escape-Dubai-Herve-Jaubert/dp/0929915... - https://historyofyesterday.com/5-disturbing-facts-about-prin... - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/11/woman-arrest... - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/10/06/pegasus...

And on and on...

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192. Beetle+p41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 17:22:17
>>vianne+bv
> In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title.

Eh, lots of people are in jail in the US primarily due to their inability to pay court fees. Many because they couldn't pay the public defender fees.[1] Lots of cases where the accumulation of court fees dwarfs the financial costs of their original crime, and are punished much more for not being able to pay for fees than for their original crime.

Oh, and in some states they suspend your driver's license for nonpayment of these fees. This makes it even harder to work and earn money.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/government_public/publica...

[1] Many wrongly assume that "the courts will provide one for you" means they're free. They often aren't.

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209. Tijdre+Vg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 18:24:39
>>concin+Jv
Here's the Firefox version: https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clea...
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212. dr_dsh+Mh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 18:28:32
>>xyzzyz+W11
What is Cannabis doing to the USA now? I’m assuming the “don’t get caught with drugs in Japan” is referring to soft drugs. Maybe I’m wrong.

http://fileserver.idpc.net/library/The-history-current-state...

222. dandar+Gl1[view] [source] 2022-02-18 18:48:02
>>Geeket+(OP)
Dictatorships are not holiday destinations or places for business - and this applies tenfold to UAE and Saudi Arabia. There has been plenty of warning over the years, enter these countries at your own risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)#Arres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali

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225. dandar+5n1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 18:55:05
>>webmob+ql1
> That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE

It was in UEA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali

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233. Turing+Or1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 19:15:50
>>rayine+VO
On this topic, this literally happened this week in New Jersey: https://twitter.com/closequarters92/status/14936736252784558...
235. bitcha+6v1[view] [source] 2022-02-18 19:35:25
>>Geeket+(OP)
Wait a second, just a few hours ago these comments were made by this user: [redacted]

Now all the down-voted ones are supposedly by: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=_hhkg

@dang, care to explain what transpired here? Are you protecting someone's account from down-votes?

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236. dang+Xv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 19:40:50
>>bitcha+6v1
When people email us with privacy concerns, we try to take care of them. This happens every day.

We try not to delete posts that got replies, because doing so would be unfair to the other commenters in the thread. At the same time, we don't want anyone to get in trouble from anything they posted to HN, so we help people who ask for help. We just try to do it with more precise tools than wholesale deletion.

This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.

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237. bduers+hw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 19:42:56
>>Scound+sD
Outline works well too:

https://outline.com/jtdYRj

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258. Valent+AY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 22:24:43
>>mbg721+yt
Singaporean here. If we're comparing aspects from the article, Singapore has a common law legal system like the US and UK, and debt isn't considered a crime.

It's common knowledge that the Singapore government has ownership stakes in most successful companies operating here via our sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings, but I've never heard of private organisations being considered governmental bodies (like DIB in the article).

Our prisons aren't pleasant either [1], but I'm quite certain inmates get healthcare when necessary.

All in, I don't think anyone here would experience a lack of due process, or the same helplessness obtaining legal representation, like what I felt reading the article.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqRPycWUDg

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259. Valent+4Z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 22:27:36
>>bduers+Hx1
Singapore made a concession to allow Wrigley's sugar-free gum and nicotine gum when they entered into a free trade agreement with the US [1], but it's overpriced and rarely in stock at pharmacies.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108629672446328324

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260. Valent+XZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-18 22:32:18
>>thebea+Hg1
I think it's more that drug limits and their corresponding punishments are clearly laid out in the law [1].

Singapore's police force and public prosecutor also practise a fair amount of prosecutorial discretion when it comes to charges [2], depending on how people plead their case before it goes to trial.

[1] https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/MDA1973?ProvIds=Sc2-#Sc2-

[2] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/prosecutorial-...

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266. savant+bs2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-19 02:08:41
>>ncalla+xE
All citizens of the United States shall have the same right, in every State and Territory, as is enjoyed by white citizens thereof to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property. (R.S. § 1978.)

+

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia. (R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct. 19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1982

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

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270. selest+Sx2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-19 03:20:09
>>fishta+FO
> How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions

Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else.

If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them are kept as slaves? It just doesn't make sense. It's mostly the Western white crowd, as opposed to non-white immigrant populations, who think these sorts of things about Dubai.

edit: example of what I mean: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30387801

Dismissing all those people looking for a better life as "slave labor" just doesn't make sense.

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300. canuck+15e[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-02-23 06:59:11
>>webmob+ql1
Also Qatar.

from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10538379/Female-Wor...:

    A female World Cup official is facing a sentence of 100 lashes and seven years in jail for 'extramarital sex' after she reported being raped while working in Qatar.

    Paola Schietekat, 28, from Mexico, was working for the World Cup organising committee when she complained that she was raped by an associate who broke into her apartment and threatened to kill her.

    She reported the June 6, 2021 attack to the Qatari authorities, who responded by accusing her of having an affair and charged her with 'extramarital sex', which is illegal in the Gulf state.

    Schietekat was told by lawyers that one way of avoiding conviction was to marry her attacker but instead decided to flee the country, leaving behind what she called her 'dream job'.
The charges against Schietekat, who is a behavioural economist, are still valid and she is expected to be sentenced in absentia on March 6.
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